A question on Initiation, Limits to magical initiation Options

[Branmac]

OK, dumb question, but what is the limit on initiation? How many levels can you theoretically get? Equal to your magic rating or is the sky the limit?

[apple]

Over 9000!!!

No, really, it´s unlimited. Only time, karma and the GM can stop you.

SYL

[_Pax._]

Actually.

In SR4, you cannot have more grades of Initiation, than you have Magic Rating.

That is to say, if your Magic is still only 6, you can't initiate that 7th time. You'll have to raise your Magic rating a point, first.

Of course, each Initiation also raises yoru Maximum Magic by +1, so effectively it's unlimited. But only if you're spending Karma to keep your Magic Rating up, too.

[Dolanar]

this is accurate, there is no predetermined limit on initiation which means that Magic is the only stat not limited by a hard cap unlike the others since since Magic is limited by your Max Essence Value + Initiation Grade.

[SpellBinder]

As a comparison, the highest Initiation level of a non-dragon cannon character I've seen is Harlequin, at 24. Not accounting for any discounts for group and/or ordeals for any initiation levels, that's a sum of 1,140 karma at the most. Raising his Magic to the maximum of 30, roughly twice as much more.

Oh, by the way, for technomancers, their Resonance attribute is similarly unlimited with their equivalent Submersions.

Added: For clarification, this is using SR4a rules exclusively.

[Hagga]

The only real way to stop it is having a sub-1 essence with grades of initiation. Then you've got magic, sure, but you can't raise your magic enough to initiate again. A power foci, depending on how lenient your GM is feeling with the wording, might let you get away with an initiation, but if you take it off before you manage to raise your magic, poof goes the karma!

[Makki]

our group also limited initiation to once every fracture of 100 karma.

[Shortstraw]

24+ for Harlequin it could be up to 30.

[SpellBinder]

And his Magic is 30 in all prints I've seen him statted out in.

[Draco18s]

The only real way to stop it is having a sub-1 essence with grades of initiation. Then you've got magic, sure, but you can't raise your magic enough to initiate again.

There've been hypothetical supermagicalcyber characters that way.

[darthmord]

The key limits given the rules as written...

Max Magic = Essence (round down to nearest whole number) + # of Initiations
Max # Initiations = Current Magic score

If your Essence never drops below 1, then you can keep raising Magic and Initiating so long as you have the Karma to do so.

Examples:
Essence 4 & Initiation 4 = 8 Max Magic

Under that same example, you have to have at least a 4 in Magic because you cannot have more Initiations than you have Magic.

Have fun!

[Tiralee]

As a dinosaur, I'm curious.

In SR3, you had to roll to achieve the next rating (2 x successes, I think) to achieve your next godlike magic hit - I take it in 4th you can simply whack in the necessary karma and bamm?

Getting those successes tended to limit our mega-ultra-power gaming:)

-Tir

[Dolanar]

theoretically yes, although you can lower the Karma needed by doing an initiation ordeal some of which can be rolls to complete the task such as meditation or crafting an item.

[Draco18s]

theoretically yes, although you can lower the Karma needed by doing an initiation ordeal some of which can be rolls to complete the task such as meditation or crafting an item.

Or cutting off your own hand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[SpellBinder]

And don't forget that in SR4, an Initiation doesn't automatically increase your Magic. IIRC that was the case for an older edition.

[_Pax._]

Spellbinder raises a good point.

In SR3 and earlier, Initiation immediately raised your Magic rating.

In SR4, Initiation only gives you permission to raise it - by spending yet more Karma.

So, let's say you have Magic 6, and initiate twice, winding up with Magic 8.

• In SR3, you spend the Karma to initiate (13 and 16, assuming no Ordeal), and have to make some die rolls. Assuming the rolls succeed? 29 Karma later, and you're done.
• In SR4, you spend the Karma to initiate (13 and 16), then spend the karma to raise your Magic (35 and 40). Total cost, 104 Karma.

If a little die-rolling gamble could save me 75 Karma (the difference between SR3 and SR4) ...? SIGN ME THE F&#K UP. Seriously, that is some mad, PHAT mojo there.

If all die rolls succeed, an SR3 character could initiate three more times, and still have 7 Karma left over, compared to the SR4 character's two initiations and 2 magic points. The SR3 character would be Initiate Grade 5, and Magic 11, at that point.

[Draco18s]

(13 and 16, assuming no Ordeal)

An ordeal will save you a measly 5 in either case. And group initiation breaks even at your second, anyway.

[SpellBinder]

Dug up a copy from SR3 for Initiation. The base cost of initiation was your new grade +5, modified as follows (rounding down):

Self Initiation: ×3
Self Initiation with Ordeal: ×2.5
Group Initiation: ×2
Group Initiation with Ordeal: ×1.5

Puts your first Initiation at a karma cost of 18, second at 21, etc., and all with an automatic increase of your Magic attribute to boot. Note I didn't dive into looking for the dice rolls for ordeals and such.

[_Pax._]

Okay. So for a solo, no-ordeal initiation and concurrent increase to magic, starting from Magic 6:

1st ... SR3, 18 Karma and dice; SR4, (13+35) 48 karma
2nd ... SR3, 21 Karma and dice; SR4, (16+40) 56 karma
3rd ... SR3, 24 Karma and dice; SR4, (19+45) 64 karma

As you can see, SR4 may be a "just pay karma and you're done" setup, but it's also hugely more expensive: 10, plus 3x grade, to initiate; then 5x new rating, to increase Magic. The three initiations above, all pretty likely to succeed even with the dicing of SR3, would come to 63 Karma for SR3, and 168 Karma for SR4. Just over 2.5x as much for SR4, due to the 5xnew cost of raising Magic.

[Halinn]

Okay. So for a solo, no-ordeal initiation and concurrent increase to magic, starting from Magic 6:

1st ... SR3, 18 Karma and dice; SR4, (13+35) 48 karma
2nd ... SR3, 21 Karma and dice; SR4, (16+40) 56 karma
3rd ... SR3, 24 Karma and dice; SR4, (19+45) 64 karma

As you can see, SR4 may be a "just pay karma and you're done" setup, but it's also hugely more expensive: 10, plus 3x grade, to initiate; then 5x new rating, to increase Magic. The three initiations above, all pretty likely to succeed even with the dicing of SR3, would come to 63 Karma for SR3, and 168 Karma for SR4. Just over 2.5x as much for SR4, due to the 5xnew cost of raising Magic.

Assuming that group initiations are as easy to get in SR3 as they are in SR4, it becomes even more lopsided. 2/3rd price, vs. still paying full for magic (42 vs 160). Ordeal on top of that, and it's even *worse* (32 vs 150)

[Glyph]

The only real way to stop it is having a sub-1 essence with grades of initiation. Then you've got magic, sure, but you can't raise your magic enough to initiate again. A power foci, depending on how lenient your GM is feeling with the wording, might let you get away with an initiation, but if you take it off before you manage to raise your magic, poof goes the karma!

Power foci don't add to the Magic Attribute in SR4.

Initiation may be more expensive in SR4, but on the other hand, awakened characters and technomancers are the only ones who have that theoretically uncapped advancement. Everyone else has comparatively low hard caps, which can often be reached during character creation.

[Epicedion]

Magic is much more useful an attribute in SR4, since you don't buy your spells at a Force rating. In SR3 you might have 12 Magic and 6 Initiation grades (and a nice Spell Pool to boot) but your Stunbolt 5 is still Stunbolt 5.

[Glyph]

Yeah - you got the point of Magic free with initiation, but it usually didn't do much of anything, unlike SR4 where it adds directly to your dice pools (including Drain, since I imagine most initiates take centering).

On the flip side, Magic loss was less of a drawback in SR3. Spells could be taken with fetish or exclusive limitations to lower their effective Force for purposes of calculating Drain, Magic loss could be offset with a geas, and power foci added directly to the Magic Attribute.

[Makki]

quick question: do you let your awakened PCs off with just paying the karma or do you expect them to undergo some tradition-related ritual which will take a considerable amount of time? if the latter is the case, what time?

[Cain]

quick question: do you let your awakened PCs off with just paying the karma or do you expect them to undergo some tradition-related ritual which will take a considerable amount of time? if the latter is the case, what time?

In SR4.5? Usually that ritual is covered under an ordeal of some sort, roleplayed out in accordance with their tradition/way.