TacSoft Questions and TacNets, how do they work?, Rigger 101 Options

[Avalon2099]

One of my players has decided to take over for a few sessions to do a Run, and I have to decide between 2 characters as Ive narrowed my play choices, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the mechanics of the TacNet and how the TacSoft works crunch-wise.

[Availability 21, 12300Y] Tactical Software 4, Ergonomic

So I know I need 5 other people for it to work, but do they have to ALSO purchase the Tacsoft and install it? or is there another way?

I have 3 drones, do I need to buy the program multiple times for each drone?

[Mantis]

Two ways it can work. Distributed network (everyone has the software) or centralized network (one person has it and everyone else is slaved and subscribed to his commlink). Either can work. The only other requirements are that everyone else has a simrig so their sense channels can be picked up or else have cybernetic senses contributing, that each member contribute Tacsoft rating x2 channels (senses) and that there is Tacsoft rating +2 participants in the tacnet. This means for rating 4 you need 6 people or drones or some combo of there of.
For drones you need to make sure they have enough onboard sensors to contribute to the network. Some say this means you need to have a sensor rating equal to the network, making rating 4 useless with drones. Others say the drone can use things like camera vision enhancements to make up the channels just as a person can. The actually intention of the rules is a little ambiguous. Choose whichever you and GM prefer.

[phlapjack77]

For who has to have the tacsoft - I think there are two options (but I'm away from the books at the moment):

1. Everyone involved in the tacnet runs their own tacsoft, so their bonus is limited by the rating of their respective tacsoft.
2. You have one person running the tacnet from their own tacsoft, like a master hub for the tacnet. Everyone involved in the tacnet gets the bonus of the hub tacsoft (the book says the downside to this is that there's a single point of failure/hackability for the tacnet)

So for your drones, if you wanted you can only buy one copy of the tacsoft, but then if something happens to that one copy the whole tacnet goes down.

Oh, and I could be wrong, but to get the full benefit of Tacsoft 4, I think you need 6 participants. A tacnet needs (rating - 2) participants, IIRC.

*edit* damn your ninja skillz, Mantis! *shakes fist*

[Mantis]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Have you never seen a mantis take it's prey? Ninjas are slow in comparison.

[phlapjack77]

Of course I've never seen a mantis take it's prey! If they're faster than ninjas, that's too fast for the augmented eye to follow

[Avalon2099]

Awesome, guys thank you for the quick responses. So If I am in a group with 7 other people (big group, but not everyone there is always present) total of 8 players, with Sim Rigs, and my three drones linked as well.

Assuming im using the centralized hub idea, as that seems easiest for now, what would the bonus be then? or whats the max? based off my TacSoft rating? Just want to make sure im crossing my T's and dotting my I's when I present this to the group.

[Dolanar]

You'll also wanna run the benefits by the GM, many GM's will limit the benefits of the Tacnet based on situations because the Tacnet can be pretty powerful if left completely untouched.

[Mantis]

Max bonus is always the lowest Tacsoft rating. In your case it would be +4 dice (rating of software). I'll second Dolanar on running the exact bonuses past the GM. Personally though, I let folks use most of the bonuses listed in the software description cuz whats a few dice between friends.

[Avalon2099]

Max bonus is always the lowest Tacsoft rating. In your case it would be +4 dice (rating of software). I'll second Dolanar on running the exact bonuses past the GM. Personally though, I let folks use most of the bonuses listed in the software description cuz whats a few dice between friends.

Of course, I just wanted to make sure I was using the rules right, I am one of the GM's as I started the game, but the group is having problems actually working together as a well-oiled team, so I wanted to give some incentives as a player/GM that might get them considering to be a group rather than Lonewolves.

[Falconer]

By the rulebook... the highest rating tacnet a drone can participate in is a 3. A loss of 1 off the highest rating for the ability to easily flood your network with extra metal bodies... not a huge problem.


Also as others have said it's critically important you run the rulebook past the GM to find out what kinds of bonuses he'll let fly. The rules on their bonuses are rather nebulous and give a big list of things the tacnet *MIGHT* (not *WILL*) give bonuses to depending on the GM. Many GM's don't like how nebulous they are and balk at a 4 reaction character suddenly doubling his defense pool to rival the street sam just for running some cheap software (yes cheap.. a 10k software split cost between 6 chars or so...). Others take the view that smartlink already does this and is a +2... One group here for example... tacnets function more as a perception and initiative boost, or for spotting information guided attacks... and don't directly help gunnery or defense pools.



If running as a central server... the other nodes only need to subscribe to you. They don't need to be slaved as someone mentioned above. Though this isn't uncommon if the central server is also the groups primary decker. Slaving eats up a subscription, and subscribing the tacnet eats up a subscription... (plus whatever subscriptions you're using to get your own sensor feed contribution)... so this isn't as clean cut as it sounds unless you have a rediculously large number of subscriptions or are running on something like a nexus. A stock rating 6 commlink will only be able to handle 12 subscriptions.

[X-Kalibur]

By the rulebook... the highest rating tacnet a drone can participate in is a 3. A loss of 1 off the highest rating for the ability to easily flood your network with extra metal bodies... not a huge problem.


Also as others have said it's critically important you run the rulebook past the GM to find out what kinds of bonuses he'll let fly. The rules on their bonuses are rather nebulous and give a big list of things the tacnet *MIGHT* (not *WILL*) give bonuses to depending on the GM. Many GM's don't like how nebulous they are and balk at a 4 reaction character suddenly doubling his defense pool to rival the street sam just for running some cheap software (yes cheap.. a 10k software split cost between 6 chars or so...). Others take the view that smartlink already does this and is a +2... One group here for example... tacnets function more as a perception and initiative boost, or for spotting information guided attacks... and don't directly help gunnery or defense pools.



If running as a central server... the other nodes only need to subscribe to you. They don't need to be slaved as someone mentioned above. Though this isn't uncommon if the central server is also the groups primary decker. Slaving eats up a subscription, and subscribing the tacnet eats up a subscription... (plus whatever subscriptions you're using to get your own sensor feed contribution)... so this isn't as clean cut as it sounds unless you have a rediculously large number of subscriptions or are running on something like a nexus. A stock rating 6 commlink will only be able to handle 12 subscriptions.

On the first point, where exactly is that quote? Unwired does not state that a drone can only participate in a rating 3 tacnet, unless you are extrapolating off of...

Sensor Systems: Data acquired from worn, carried,
or mounted sensor systems of various types (cameras, microphones,
range finders, motion sensors, etc.) may also be
contributed to the network as a sensor channel. Drones sensor
systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor
channels equal to its Sensor rating

But the issue here is the listing of mounted sensors, which would imply that a drone gets sensors system rating + mounted sensors to add to the tacnet.

How do you figure said REA 4 hacker is suddenly doubling his dice pool for defense? That isn't listed as a bonus. Dodge and Melee defense tests are. Meaning the tacnet is adding to your dodge or close combat skill. As for initiative, given that both are optional rules only, you either get a +1 initiative for using DNI or receive your tacnet bonus but forgo the other tacnet bonuses for that round.

Also, run a separate commlink just for tacsoft, problem solved. At least for the hacker and a TM who threads it has an unlimited subscription size anyway. (Possibly misinformation, did not check prior to statement).

Mind you, I'm not trying to judge how you use the rules, but some of that is not what the book has as written.

[Falconer]

Incorrect... the book very explicitly states.

"Each Drone can supply a number of sensor channels to the tacnet equal to it's sensor rating."
Since rating 6 is the maximum drone sensor rating... then rating 3 is the maximum rating of a tacnet with drone participants.

Even if the drone is wearing more sensors... or it's built-in sensor suite includes more than its sensor rating in channels. It CAN only contribute up to to that number of channels.

NB: it uses the word DRONE and can (as in... is capable of)... not full vehicle. Larger vehicles such as cars and and up are not subject to this limitation. So the riggers battle van could send all 12 sensors if it so desired. Drones are limited to their sensor rating in channels and no more even if they have more elgible sensor channels. And then only if it actually has that many sensor channels to feed. (if the drone has a single large sensor like a radar it might not have a full compliment of 6).



As for the rest... you're arguing semantics.
If the rigger is tossing 8 dice on personal defense just like the street sam was before (at a cost of 10's or 100's of nuyen and essence in augmentations). Then yes the benefit is out of line. The only thing that matters is the size of the pool.

This is listed as a possible benefit the GM might use. So if your GM allows this kind of blatant dice pool inflation for everyone... more power to him. But the book does not list this as a guaranteed benefit. It lists it as one possible thing the tacnet *MIGHT* do.
Exact quote:
"Here are some example tests in which tacnet bonuses *MIGHT* apply:"
laundry list of things... close combat, dodge, firearms... those are the 3 most questionable from a balance perspective... all the rest are pretty good examples of information is power.


The rules for tacnets unfortunately are a nebulous mess with a much larger element of GM discretion than most equipment/software. Which is why it's absolutely critical that players discuss them with their GM's and not come to a rules forum like this and expect gospel.

I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument... merely caution the original poster that his question and it's answers here are all subject to *HIS* GM's interpretation of the text. His GM my play it a multitude of different ways without house ruling anything merely by how he interprets the key bits of it all.

[X-Kalibur]

I hear what you're saying, it's the first part of the book quote that gets me. "Drones sensor systems also count;". You're focused on the second part while I'm still looking at the first. Obviously not as clear as it was meant to be when written. To me, it implies that a drone's sensor systems act like natural senses to humans. For example, we can apply our five natural senses. I suppose more importantly with the wording, it doesn't state that it only applies its sensor rating.

I totally understand where you're coming from with the balance standpoint and it really lacks a lot of hard rules outside of needing X + 2 networked devices with X*2 channels to get X bonus. Where and when bonuses apply and to what they apply is left fairly vague. Although allowing it give a straight defense pool bonus feels a bit strange. It can't make you react to being shot at any faster. In the case of actively dodging, I understand it applying a bonus based on information being provided about the firing patterns, etc, of the people shooting at them.

[Mantis]

Don't start this again guys. This isn't likely to be settled outside an official ruling from Catalyst and probably not even then. Like I said some rule one way and some the other on drones. However if you run a centralized tacnet you do need to slave your commlinks to the master node running the tacsoft. Says so right in the book on pg 125 of Unwired under centralized tacnets.

[Falconer]

We weren't starting it... we raised the two sides... and let the OP know he needs to talk to his GM to figure out how he reads the unclear sections.


But you're right... my memory was wrong on the last part. I was thinking the commlinks only needed to be subscribed... but yes they do need slaved and the slaving makes them part of it.

[X-Kalibur]

We agreed to disagree on the matter. I respect his opinion on the matter and it is just as strong as mine.

Does intrigue me to consider a TM who runs CF of tacsoft, however with a bunch of tiny drones with high sensor ratings just to be safe (and you can only mount so much on them) and using him for closer support, rather than the more traditional roles. Since TMs are unhackable per the rules, slaving to him makes your network pretty much undefeatable.

[All4BigGuns]

Don't start this again guys. This isn't likely to be settled outside an official ruling from Catalyst and probably not even then. Like I said some rule one way and some the other on drones. However if you run a centralized tacnet you do need to slave your commlinks to the master node running the tacsoft. Says so right in the book on pg 125 of Unwired under centralized tacnets.

Slaving your comm to the Rigger's may not be a bad idea anyway since he's probably even more likely than the Hacker to have a high Electronic Warfare for use with Encryption. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

X-kal:
That's an old trick that's been brought up a few times. If you go with the bionodes are unhackable except by technos & their sprites... then the central node is pretty much impervious.

The slaved nodes aren't directly hackable... but they are spoofable... so you can spoof them into disconnecting or doing other things.

Another big problem is the subscription limit on techno's... especially if they don't raise their logic/system. A log 3 techno is only system rating 3... with only 6 subscriptions. Since system on technomancers is almost never used... it's not umcommon to skimp on logic as opposed to intuition, cha, and wil.

The final problem with the techno basis is they have weak signal (half resonance... so 3 is common). Making them fairly easy to jam.

[Mantis]

We weren't starting it... we raised the two sides... and let the OP know he needs to talk to his GM to figure out how he reads the unclear sections.


But you're right... my memory was wrong on the last part. I was thinking the commlinks only needed to be subscribed... but yes they do need slaved and the slaving makes them part of it.

Fair enough. Just seemed that it might, and I stress, might get out of hand unless two reasonable and rational individuals like yourselves were presenting their opinions and arguments for and against. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
I almost always double check my books on rules to make sure I've got it right. That's why I love the PDF versions so much. Searchable and available anywhere my computer is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Of course whether my interpretation is always right is open to debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .
Did I use enough emoticons ? Better add a few more just in case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

X-kal:
That's an old trick that's been brought up a few times. If you go with the bionodes are unhackable except by technos & their sprites... then the central node is pretty much impervious.

The slaved nodes aren't directly hackable... but they are spoofable... so you can spoof them into disconnecting or doing other things.

The final problem with the techno basis is they have weak signal (half resonance... so 3 is common). Making them fairly easy to jam.

Problem is that you need the AID of the Master node to spoof them, and since the Master Node is a Bionode..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
As for signal, all they need is a repeater (Comlink or drone) and viola, Signal 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

TJ.... the master node must be transmitting to the slaves... getting the access ID is trivial. Just because they're a TM doesn't make that step any harder... breaking into the node yes. Spoofing it's access ID no. It's still sniff, decrypt, track... same as always.

As for the second... as soon as you add a repeater or a real commlink... that can be hacked instead. Also you need a wired path for the comms since a jammer will wipe out the bionode's wireless path to the repeater.


Nothing you've listed is anything more than speed bumps... the rules aren't crafted such as the only way to do this is to bust into the TM bionode. Even moreso as the TM can't quickly alter his AID... because all the devices are slaved... and would need to be unslaved and reslaved to the new AID.


Furthermore in any kind of high rating tacsoft... I guarantee an audit of your subscriptions once you start doing this... as slaving the nodes + your repeater nodes... etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ.... the master node must be transmitting to the slaves... getting the access ID is trivial. Just because they're a TM doesn't make that step any harder... breaking into the node yes. Spoofing it's access ID no. It's still sniff, decrypt, track... same as always.

As for the second... as soon as you add a repeater or a real commlink... that can be hacked instead. Also you need a wired path for the comms since a jammer will wipe out the bionode's wireless path to the repeater.


Nothing you've listed is anything more than speed bumps... the rules aren't crafted such as the only way to do this is to bust into the TM bionode. Even moreso as the TM can't quickly alter his AID... because all the devices are slaved... and would need to be unslaved and reslaved to the new AID.


Furthermore in any kind of high rating tacsoft... I guarantee an audit of your subscriptions once you start doing this... as slaving the nodes + your repeater nodes... etc.

Sniff (yes), Decrypt (yes), Track (to the Master Node, which you cannot do unless your Resonant.....) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Yes, I know, but Speed Bumps are usually enough, though. *shrug*

[Falconer]

Nowhere does it state this in unwired or SR4a TJ.

You're making that last bit up unless you can cite it... the rules even state the bionode can be located just as any other hidden node may be! And nowhere in the rules can I find anything stating the TM can't be traced. p135 modes and scanning and tracking and hacking sections.

p135 as well... hacking the bionode doesn't say anything about non-resonance bits... only that sprites and TM's use the normal rules with a few exceptions.

Once again under subscriptions and traffic... while i can't do much to the bionode... I can sense and monitor it's traffic and even spoof commands from it.


If you go into passive reciever mode... all slaved nodes lose their subscriptions and are disconnected. So you've done my job for me by shutting down the tacnet (or your drones protection) yourself. If you spoof yourself a new Access ID again... all your subscriptions are voided... and all the nodes need to be reslaved again. Once again you've taken down the tacnet for me.


Trace does NOT require accessing the bionode... simply tracking a signal back to it's general source area.

Alternatively the bionode can be found simply by guessing which runner is the techno... then scanning him for hidden nodes. Ewar + Scan (4) test... not that hard. As well as the inventory all nodes in an area extended test.

Once again per the rules your AccessID is on all your transmissions... capture wireless, intercept traffic actions as well can be used to find out your access id. Without an AccessID on your transmissions the matrix cannot route your signals. So even if the slaved node is forwarding back all traffic... it must include your AccessID in the transmissions to tell the matrix where to route the signals back to. Even if the data itself is encrypted... the addressing information needs to be readable by all nodes the signal passes through.

[Warlordtheft]

Don't start this again guys. This isn't likely to be settled outside an official ruling from Catalyst and probably not even then. Like I said some rule one way and some the other on drones. However if you run a centralized tacnet you do need to slave your commlinks to the master node running the tacsoft. Says so right in the book on pg 125 of Unwired under centralized tacnets.

Here's how I as a GM run it (I'm not sure it is raw, but it is close enough) you need a number of participant equal to the rating +2 (so for a rating 1 tacnet you need at least three participants). Participants include drones and any other sentient being. Now each participant must have a tacnet program running equal to or greater than the tacnet rating of everyone else to qualify as a participant and must provide a number of sensors equal to twice the rating of the tacnet.

so if in the party we had four PC's and eight drones running a tacsoft at rating 3, each of the participants needs to provide 6 sensors to count as a participant and get the full benefits. If all 12 participate is won't go down to a rating 2 until there are only 4 participants left (either due to being taken out or their sensors blinded).

I do not worry about if a sensor is always applicable as my theory is that the tacnet is also a situation awareness program that helps guide your actions. As to the OP, yes everyone has to have the tacsoft to contribute and gain benefit from the Tacnet. The advantage to slaving is more or less to prevent hacking.

[Mantis]

Once again, no, everyone does not have to have the software. Read Centralized Tacnets in Unwired. There are two ways to run the thing. Everyone has the software in a Decentralized Tacnet and uses a subscription, or the Centralized Tacnet where one person (usually the hacker or rigger) has the software and everyone slaves their commlink to his. All this info can be found on pg 125 of Unwired.
The OP is looking to use a Centralized tacnet so his team mates don't need to shell out the 12,000¥ for the program as you would need to do in a decentralized tacnet.