TacSoft Questions and TacNets, how do they work?, Rigger 101 Options

[All4BigGuns]

Once again, no, everyone does not have to have the software. Read Centralized Tacnets in Unwired. There are two ways to run the thing. Everyone has the software in a Decentralized Tacnet and uses a subscription, or the Centralized Tacnet where one person (usually the hacker or rigger) has the software and everyone slaves their commlink to his. All this info can be found on pg 125 of Unwired.
The OP is looking to use a Centralized tacnet so his team mates don't need to shell out the 12,000¥ for the program as you would need to do in a decentralized tacnet.

Like I said before, I'd rather be part of Centralized with the Rigger hosting because he's likely to have the best skill in Encryption (enough to justify that one-day interval 'strong encryption').

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Once again per the rules your AccessID is on all your transmissions... capture wireless, intercept traffic actions as well can be used to find out your access id. Without an AccessID on your transmissions the matrix cannot route your signals. So even if the slaved node is forwarding back all traffic... it must include your AccessID in the transmissions to tell the matrix where to route the signals back to. Even if the data itself is encrypted... the addressing information needs to be readable by all nodes the signal passes through.

So why do you need to Trace the signal then?
Your original position held that Trace was necessary. You trace to gain access to the Master Node, and that you cannot do to a Bionode if you are not Resonant. Just saying. Yes, I agree that you can spoof its commands, but to do that you need the AID. You do not need to TRACE it to get that.

And if you have MSR to the Device, no routing is needed. Not likely with a TM, but I just wanted to put that out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

TJ:
But the rules *DO* allow you to trace a bionode... even if you're not resonant...

You can only localize it down to 50m though as stated.

Technomancers are *NOT* untraceable to mundanes as you've claimed. (double negative sorry but..)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But here is the scenario, Falconer...

You see a drone you want to hack; it is slaved to the Bionode of a Technomancer. You attempt to hack the node, but since it is slaved, you are shunted to the Master node, at which point you are dumped (not physically, of course... at least I would hope that is the case, because it is at our table), because you cannot hack the Bionode of a Technomancer (unless you are Resonant). Me? I am going to look for another drone at that point; or, if it a drone that needs to be dealt with, I will likely just deal with the drone physically. *shrug*

Never said they were untraceable, per se, just that tracing back to the node does not work, because you cannot actually access the node (unless you are Resonant), since trace moves from node to node as you track. You will eventually get where you want to go and then be stymied when you get there because you cannot pass through the bionode. *shrug*

[Mantis]

Sorry TJ, but are you saying the Persona of a hacker follows the trace (like a bloodhound on a trail) rather than the program just giving you his location/ID/etc after it has run? I didn't think Track worked that way so just trying to be clear.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry TJ, but are you saying the Persona of a hacker follows the trace (like a bloodhound on a trail) rather than the program just giving you his location/ID/etc after it has run? I didn't think Track worked that way so just trying to be clear.

Seen it work both ways, at different tables. Sorry, I probably should have stated that. Depends upon your view of the Matrix, I guess. Personally, I prefer the Bloodhound interpretation, and that is what I like to use (descriptively). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

I've never seen nor heard of anyone ever running it that way TJ. That sounds like another of your matrix house rules and not one of your better ones.

The trace program... goes through the matrix and traces the path the TM's signal takes from his bionode to the drone he has slaved. If something happens (such as the hacker spoofing a new Access ID... closing all his connections and and subscriptions), then the trace goes til it finds the nearest node he routed through (if not a mutual signal range). If your answer to the TM's weak signal is to carry a repeater commlink... it will trace to that commlink and then continue to try and trace through to the bionode (whose location only is fuzzed). This is in unwired.


The living persona has absolutely nothing to do with it... for most intensive purposes it's an icon in the matrix is no different than any other. The living node and only the living node on which it is hosted is different.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never seen nor heard of anyone ever running it that way TJ. That sounds like another of your matrix house rules and not one of your better ones.

The trace program... goes through the matrix and traces the path the TM's signal takes from his bionode to the drone he has slaved. If something happens (such as the hacker spoofing a new Access ID... closing all his connections and and subscriptions), then the trace goes til it finds the nearest node he routed through (if not a mutual signal range). If your answer to the TM's weak signal is to carry a repeater commlink... it will trace to that commlink and then continue to try and trace through to the bionode (whose location only is fuzzed). This is in unwired.


The living persona has absolutely nothing to do with it... for most intensive purposes it's an icon in the matrix is no different than any other. The living node and only the living node on which it is hosted is different.

Mechanically, yes, you are correct. Narratively, there is leeway. I have been enjoying the narrative more and more of late is all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Funny you mention Matrix Houserules, since we quit using the one we were experimenting with. Most of the differences in style are narrative not mechanical. The mechanical differences are covered by Optional Rules, not House Rules. But no worries. I do get what you are saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Just me... but I don't find this even flavorful for sake of your narrative. There's no support whatsoever in the rules and it doesn't serve any good purpose in game.

Oh look a technomancer... everybody else just pack your bags and go home. That's all it does. Railroading... that's not narrative.

Even from the matrix point of view... a TM's icon isn't supposed to be any different than anyone elses.


I find the whole bionode thing interesting... but whoever wrote it didn't give any thought whatsoever to the consequences of it... just as they didn't give any thought to meta's for free in karmagen. Then again the whole of unwired suffers from that problem of multiple people wrote it and nobody checked to make sure that all the rules play nice with each other outside their own little sections (slaving and bionodes are probably a good example.. I don't believe this was an intended outcome). It was probably a mistake to make them completely inaccessable instead of far harder than any normal node.

[X-Kalibur]

Let's see here...

Hackers have three options when faced with a slaved node.
First, they can hack in directly to the slave with an additional
threshold modifier of +2, though this requires a physical (wired)
connection to the device. Second, they can hack the master node
(thus gaining access to the slaved node—and any other slaves—
as well), though this node is usually more secure. Third, they can
spoof the access ID of the master node and then spoof commands
to the slave.

We also have...

Although an opposing hacker cannot scan or enter the
technomancer’s biological node, he can sense and intercept the
wireless traffic between the technomancer and an electronic node
(like a drone or device) as mentioned on p. 225, SR4. Hackers can
even spoof a signal coming from the technomancer, as the traffic
originating from the bio-node has to be in an electronic format
that devices can understand, and is therefore vulnerable to forgery.
Hackers may not, however, spoof commands to sprites (though
technomancers may spoof such commands).

Spelled out in plain day, really. You can trace the signal and spoof it back to the drones. And in the case of using a repeater, you could hack that for rights and spoof even more easily.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just me... but I don't find this even flavorful for sake of your narrative. There's no support whatsoever in the rules and it doesn't serve any good purpose in game.

Oh look a technomancer... everybody else just pack your bags and go home. That's all it does. Railroading... that's not narrative.

Even from the matrix point of view... a TM's icon isn't supposed to be any different than anyone elses.


I find the whole bionode thing interesting... but whoever wrote it didn't give any thought whatsoever to the consequences of it... just as they didn't give any thought to meta's for free in karmagen. Then again the whole of unwired suffers from that problem of multiple people wrote it and nobody checked to make sure that all the rules play nice with each other outside their own little sections (slaving and bionodes are probably a good example.. I don't believe this was an intended outcome). It was probably a mistake to make them completely inaccessable instead of far harder than any normal node.

There is a difference between the Persona and the Icon, no doubt.
Lets approach this a different way, then.

How about this? What does YOUR bloodhound IC do when you activate it? Mine? It locks on to the scent (the data trail), and then it tracks the user 's icon back to his originating node, and then infiltrates the node, ideally leaving something in the node for later. Or you can just pound on each other by roilling dice, which is the norm.

I find the first option flavorful, and the second option rather boring.

A lot of people complain that there are no options int eh Matrix, and I just laugh, because there are UNLIMITED options in the Matrix. They are only constrained to the imagination of the person implementing them.

Bionodes are very interesting, but here is the thing. In my above scenario, your IC would pound on the ICON and have a net positive effect. My Bloodhound IC option would be a failure... Why? Because my Bloodhound cannot infiltrate the Bionode. Which do you think I find more flavorful? it is not about the fact that a Technomancer has the POTENTIAL to be more powerful, because he undoubedly does.It is the fact that, in my experience, it takes an inordinate amount of time. Case in point. Our Prime Runners include a Technomancer (335ish Karma) and a Cyberlogician (320ish Karma), and more often than not, the Cyberlogician is better at HACKING than the Technomancer is, because the Technomancer has difficulties FINDING thsoe nodes that are so elusive, while the Cyberlogician does not (was often a running joke, sicne the CL could even find those pesky non-standard nodes with no trouble... the Technomancer had to ask for assistance more often than not to locate them). We are both aspected to Spoof, but since he cannot actually locate Nodes as efficiently as thje Cyberlogician does, he is far less useful in many circumstances. However, once he actually DID find a Node, he had 26 Dice to Spoof to my 15. Who do you think wins that one? Not to mention the ability to hack ANYTHING with his Resonance Touch.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Spelled out in plain day, really. You can trace the signal and spoof it back to the drones. And in the case of using a repeater, you could hack that for rights and spoof even more easily.

Can't hack the repeater if it is slaved... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Unless you are direect wiring the Bionode or the Device. If that is the case, you have greater problems on your hands. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Well, slaving the repeater runs you into a subscription problem, doesn't it? But regardless of that point, you can trace and spoof a technomancer just like anything else. The difference being finding their node to spoof is much harder. A 50m radius is pretty large.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, slaving the repeater runs you into a subscription problem, doesn't it? But regardless of that point, you can trace and spoof a technomancer just like anything else. The difference being finding their node to spoof is much harder. A 50m radius is pretty large.

It might, dependent upon number of subscriptions you need. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
50m Radius is pretty huge indeed...

[Falconer]

One thing I did get wrong here.. I said it for ewar when it isn't necessary for it. In fact it's a glaring hole in the rules... the trace user action is for tracking an icon... not an existing connection. I'd say it could also be used to track the physical location of a node though if you have it's AccessID since no other action makes sense for it.



That said though, you're talking about a full fledged ICE here TJ with multiple moving parts. So no I don't find this a matter of narrative/flavor... I find it a matter of raw mission/power creep. The track program itself does not do all that.

The bloodhound in your case would need a full fledged agent, track, scanner/sniffer (forget which finds hidden nodes), exploit, plus some sort of viral/worm payload to leave behind. That's a completely different animal than the trace program primitive (yes I come from a unix background).

Also... the matrix rules in SR4 don't support proxies... you don't put another device in there... then use your root access there to connect to something else. You're an icon in the node.. you're not using it's persona... you're using your own persona still on your local device. So it's not a matter of tracking back through a series of nodes you've logged into. It's a matter of simply finding out where if I send a packet to this address where does it go? How is it routed so I can send my buddy street sam to have some fun with the punk. If you are in the node with root.. you merely have signal path to it... and you would use up a subscription on your device to connect to the target normally... not a subscription from the remote device in mutual signal range.


The trace program itself merely provides a physical location and also the AccessID if you don't already have it. Heres another tidbit I missed when I reread this... it only provides the location of *ANY* (not just TM's) down to 50m. Only wired connections are pinpointed. (that makes some of the fluff about the upcoming matrix changes a bit more important as it has the fuzz tracking slamm-o right down to his exact hotel room... too bad they didn't bust him...).


The accessID would already be in the log of the server when you crack/login to it... and again when you disconnect. So the AccessID isn't the important part of it...

Your AccessID is like your modern day IP address. (well more like IPv6 since that does better with mesh routing... and assigns numbers on a geographical basis).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One thing I did get wrong here.. I said it for ewar when it isn't necessary for it. In fact it's a glaring hole in the rules... the trace user action is for tracking an icon... not an existing connection. I'd say it could also be used to track the physical location of a node though if you have it's AccessID since no other action makes sense for it.

You are tracking an existing connection, though, otherwise there would be no ICON present.

That said though, you're talking about a full fledged ICE here TJ with multiple moving parts. So no I don't find this a matter of narrative/flavor... I find it a matter of raw mission/power creep. The track program itself does not do all that.

The bloodhound in your case would need a full fledged agent, track, scanner/sniffer (forget which finds hidden nodes), exploit, plus some sort of viral/worm payload to leave behind. That's a completely different animal than the trace program primitive (yes I come from a unix background).

Also... the matrix rules in SR4 don't support proxies... you don't put another device in there... then use your root access there to connect to something else. You're an icon in the node.. you're not using it's persona... you're using your own persona still on your local device. So it's not a matter of tracking back through a series of nodes you've logged into. It's a matter of simply finding out where if I send a packet to this address where does it go? How is it routed so I can send my buddy street sam to have some fun with the punk. If you are in the node with root.. you merely have signal path to it... and you would use up a subscription on your device to connect to the target normally... not a subscription from the remote device in mutual signal range.


The trace program itself merely provides a physical location and also the AccessID if you don't already have it. Heres another tidbit I missed when I reread this... it only provides the location of *ANY* (not just TM's) down to 50m. Only wired connections are pinpointed. (that makes some of the fluff about the upcoming matrix changes a bit more important as it has the fuzz tracking slamm-o right down to his exact hotel room... too bad they didn't bust him...).


The accessID would already be in the log of the server when you crack/login to it... and again when you disconnect. So the AccessID isn't the important part of it...

Your AccessID is like your modern day IP address. (well more like IPv6 since that does better with mesh routing... and assigns numbers on a geographical basis).

Yes, I am talking about an IC/Worm package at that point, otherwise your persona is doing the trace itself, which can be better delegated to IC/Agent/Worms, as the Hacker's time is finite and there are much more important things for him to do.

And yes, Unwired does support proxies (not sure that is the correct terminology), as when you use them, you lose Response due to load. As for the actual tracking, yes, if the Persona Traces, you get a rough destination, and that is about it. Hell, you do not even get the AID unless you actually analyze for it (which is a no-brainer, to be sure, and some may actually hand-wave it).

Yes, the Trace analysis is only accurate to a 50m Radius if wireless. However, all it takes is a few second hack to eliminate the quess work, since all comlinks have GPS, which can provide coordinates to the meter. Or the work of a few correlated towers (triangulation) pinging data to also narrow it down to the meter. Yes, I know, no mechanics for that, other than the GPS in the comlink, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And the AID is in the log, assuming you want to actually scan millions (if not tens of millions) of log lines to locate it, as the node transfers data and reroutes continuously, with unlimited capacity (yeah, I know, mechanically, it is not all that difficult to find... a simple Analyze roll... ). Not like modern computers where there is actually a bottleneck at this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

The slaved nodes aren't directly hackable... but they are spoofable... so you can spoof them into disconnecting or doing other things.

If you have not locked out every single command from your drone's systems, that you are not planning on using, you deserve to get your drones stolen.

Many of the commands that would be used to spoof and hijack a drone are also commands that a rigger would not really be using remotely anyway, like "create new admin account" or the like.

Lock them out.

If you really need to use them, you can damn well command the drone to come to you and pop the access panel to input the instructions directly.


-k

[Falconer]

TJ: Where is the bit you're talking about for proxy? Thanks

The closest I could find is node sculpting... and bottlenecking things so they have to go through one node to get to another.


KI: Sorry but while I agree wholeheartedly about locking out commands that don't make sense... and I disagree wholeheartedly with spoofing new accounts! (think this is an abuse of spoof... when exploit exists to crack accounts in thing). The problem is the whole thing is far too open ended... and there should be some kind of limit to these things. Also the rules don't really support locking things by access method only by privilege level (though I wholeheartedly agree they should... it makes things make more sense).

Anyhow here's the problem I just thought of... by strict RAW. Only peripheral nodes and drones can be spoofed. So if you slave a commlink it can't be spoofed... unless you read the slaving rules to create an exception when it says people can spoof commands from the master. (guess that makes the most sense)... otherwise it would be pretty much impossible to ever disconnect a link from another.

But a lot of this is problematic in another way... especially for a technomancer... a rating 10 data bomb with the pavlov and biofeedback options... pretty much shuts anyone and everyone out of breaking into anything unless they can get the password, again off your link which is probably similarly bombed or requires a TM since I don't believe you can databomb a TM node (might be wrong). The bomb rolls twice it's rating in dice... and the pool to break it is limited... as if slaving back to the TM node wasn't enough...

That leaves only the spoof method... if you make that impossible as well. There is pretty much nothing whatsoever you can do to break into the node. I don't know about you, but impossible is not a good situation for any game. Exceptionally difficult... but impossible should not be in the cards for a good game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ: Where is the bit you're talking about for proxy? Thanks

The closest I could find is node sculpting... and bottlenecking things so they have to go through one node to get to another.

Proxy Servers, Page 104 of Unwired.
My Pleasure, Falconer.

[Falconer]

I see... I had missed/forgotten that last paragraph.

I thought that section was for... yeah I bust into random schmuck's commlink... I then set it up so I can bounce emails off it while still disguising my own origination source. Didn't realize you could also route all traffic through it to fuzz traces.

The next section at least clears up the track bit too... if you're not in the node you have no idea the track is going on and can't obfuscate it. As well as the rules for even noticing the trace attempt go way up if your tracker is also running stealth.


Oh well, we can only hope that jmhardy actually puts a good team of playtesters on all the new matrix stuff and it gets cleaned up a bit.