[X] My Assistant

[Avalon2099]

One of my players has taken it upon himself with the groups blessing to attempt to fence goods gained from the runs they do and thus far this is what they have managed to procure over the last few runs.

Armor: What he wants for it/// Book Price (new)
2x Lined Coats ¥ 700 /// ¥ 1’400
2x Armored Jackets ¥ 900 /// ¥ 1’800
6x Armored Vests ¥ 600 /// ¥ 1’200

Weapons:
2x AK-97 Assault Rifles (w/ Smart Gun Link) ¥ 1’000 /// ¥ 2’000
8x Colt Man Hunter Heavy Auto Pistols (w/ Smart Gun Links) ¥ 600 /// ¥ 4’800
2x Colt Man Hunter Heavy Auto Pistols ¥ 300 /// ¥ 600
6x Yamaha Pulsar ¥ 150 /// ¥ 300

Other Gear:
6x Soney EMP ComLinks ¥ 700 /// ¥ 4’200
8x Restraint Sets ¥ 50 /// ¥ 400

Vehicle:
01x Rover 2068 /// ¥ 25’000
Total: ¥ 41’700

I found the rules for Swag (fencing goods) in SR4 book, but what I am looking for is what is the fair price for selling this stuff? half book or is it presented elsewhere? Obviously if they go through a contact there will be a finders fee as normal.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Basic Price is 30% of the book price.

[Smirnov]

I started a thread on same issue some time ago:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1202600

[Mantis]

As GM, I use the mods from the chart on pg 312 of SR4A for the sale of goods like this, most notably the stolen, used and item used in a crime entry. Generally this means it isn't worth it to fence stuff like armour jackets (really? some dead dude's jacket? that's cold man) and weapons. High end stuff like cars are probably worth while though.
Many times fencing stuff like this gets done because the players feel they aren't getting enough cash to meet their needs and wants. So as GM, maybe bring this up with them. Ask why they feel they need to sell off a dead guy's jacket for a few bucks. After all, if you are running the shadows and making decent coin, the potential profit from selling used goods like this and risk running into cops, mobster's or the dead guy's friends just shouldn't be worth it.
Either that or else they've been playing too much D&D or WoW and have gotten into the habit of loot and sell and repeat. Break that habit man. Selling a dead guy's jacket.... what is the world coming to?

[Avalon2099]

As GM, I use the mods from the chart on pg 312 of SR4A for the sale of goods like this, most notably the stolen, used and item used in a crime entry. Generally this means it isn't worth it to fence stuff like armour jackets (really? some dead dude's jacket? that's cold man) and weapons. High end stuff like cars are probably worth while though.
Many times fencing stuff like this gets done because the players feel they aren't getting enough cash to meet their needs and wants. So as GM, maybe bring this up with them. Ask why they feel they need to sell off a dead guy's jacket for a few bucks. After all, if you are running the shadows and making decent coin, the potential profit from selling used goods like this and risk running into cops, mobster's or the dead guy's friends just shouldn't be worth it.
Either that or else they've been playing too much D&D or WoW and have gotten into the habit of loot and sell and repeat. Break that habit man. Selling a dead guy's jacket.... what is the world coming to?

Yeah, this one player is a scavenger, not his character HIM. Now the armors, actually they used non-lethal means to get the armors, but they stripped them off the guys. Which was odd to me in the first place.

I have given them close to 20000 Nuyen each so far after 3 runs. I think he is just doing to make as much money as possible and try to get ahead of some imaginary curve.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The weapons could serve as a decent bribe for the local street gangs.

[Mantis]

Hmm. Yeah that happens. My bit on the armour was mostly humorous (for me anyway) but I'd have an NPC toss that out when he goes to sell it. Likely your player suffers from too much computer RPGs and not enough table top. Bop him on the head and say No! Bad player! No selling (dead) people's clothes!
I get that there are fencing rules in the game and all but I'd save fencing for big ticket items over things like Colt Manhunters. Really, used cyberware is where the real money can be made (don't tell your players this), and organ legging and then dumping the rest with some ghouls.
Also, don't forget that fencing takes time, potentially lots of time, as each interval takes 6 hours and you aren't likely to do more than 2 intervals a day, so unless you are giving him that time, he won't be able to sell all that swag quickly, unless he wants to take massive cuts in the profit. Rules are on pgs 312-313 SR4A.
Of course, all this advice assumes you don't want them to loot everyone they come across. If you're cool with it, just ignore me.

[Smirnov]

Many times fencing stuff like this gets done because the players feel they aren't getting enough cash to meet their needs and wants. So as GM, maybe bring this up with them. Ask why they feel they need to sell off a dead guy's jacket for a few bucks. After all, if you are running the shadows and making decent coin, the potential profit from selling used goods like this and risk running into cops, mobster's or the dead guy's friends just shouldn't be worth it.
Either that or else they've been playing too much D&D or WoW and have gotten into the habit of loot and sell and repeat. Break that habit man. Selling a dead guy's jacket.... what is the world coming to?

It's a matter or roleplaying sometimes. One of the characters in our game was/is selling everything he can get a hold of. He's ex-ganger and the times when every nuyen counted are still fresh in his memory, so he's doing it out of habit. Though he managed to sell one tuned-up car and made enough money to install some new augments and afford a military-grade armor... But there's trouble heading his way soon enough. Still, what I mean, is that's fencing gear is not done only to get money. It may be part of the characters lifestyle

[Mantis]

Sure. And I didn't say that was always why it is done, just frequently. There is also the professional aspect of it to consider from a role playing perspective. How do 'professionals' react when they see someone on their team looting the bodies and pulling jackets off to fence later? Especially in the middle of a run. Did CorpSec hear the fight that lead to those bodies? Are they on the way? And who the hell is carrying the extra stuff anyway?
This could lead to some interesting conflicts and role play with the ganger you describe, Smirnov. But it can also be used to gently hint to a player that maybe he is stepping over a line by having professionals make some comment on the behaviour.
Really, it is all a matter of whether you want to encourage D&D style loot and pillage or try to keep a more pro attitude to your game. And as I pointed out, the big bucks are in used cyberware anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shaidar]

Avalon2099 don't forget that the RFID Tags are traceable. The Corp which employed the former user of that ArmorJacket might want their property back. The Tags could be traceable within 40 meters and also scream their location back to the Corp via any WIFI 'link within the aforementioned 40 meters.

Taking Swag can get you geeked quick.

[Avalon2099]

Avalon2099 don't forget that the RFID Tags are traceable. The Corp which employed the former user of that ArmorJacket might want their property back. The Tags could be traceable within 40 meters and also scream their location back to the Corp via any WIFI 'link within the aforementioned 40 meters.

Taking Swag can get you geeked quick.

Yup, I had that planned as they havent said they are deactivating or attempting to deactivate the security RFID tags. Game resumes tomorrow night and I am going to clarify in character for him or whomever is assisting him with the gear, if hes not cautious crap could hit the fan and not just for him but anyone who is with him at the time of the 'reposessing'

[Avalon2099]

Would the corp go after the gear or would they send Knight Errant? How would this normally be handled?

[Mantis]

Depends on the corp and just what was taken. Lower end corps might just call the cops (KE) while a higher end corp might send their own security and if they are feeling vindictive, take out his contact and replace him with a ringer so the PCs walk into a trap. If the corp has criminal ties they might send some large men with hammers to have a talk with PCs about why they shouldn't take stuff that doesn't belong to them.
However this is pretty small time as far as theft goes so I don't see bringing the hammer down on them. If they don't take precautions and get rid of the RFIDs first, then just have KE show up at the meet. Give them a chance to spot the cops and the option to run or have the cops show just before the money exchanges hands and have the PCs forced to leave the swag and cash or face getting arrested or into a shoot out with KE (bad idea). Probably won't do their standing with their contact any good either.

[Teulisch]

go after? heh. you wish they would be so direct.

now, those security RFID tags may phone home every so often. and the ones in the smartlinks send PICTURES. now the ones in armor would be designed to help recover lost agents, or just track their movements for HR.

now, how that data gets used depends on the corp. and yes, some short-sighted managers may just send an HTR team to recover the gear. but the smart ones will sit back and follow its movement. watch the meets with contacts, the vehicles used, the safe houses used.... why, after a week or so, that rather hot gear may result in a 'job offer' from Mr. Johnson. half up front has already been delivered of course.... because if you were good enough to run against them, why not use you against their competition? or maybe you just find that lonestar or KE suddenly has a thick file on you regarding the theft of some guns, and the dealers you sold to. enjoy your notoriety.

in general, this is why you pack a tag eraser. this is why you get RFID-blocking spraypaint. this is why you get a faraday cage. because if the job says 'steal item X', you may want to steal a few other targets of opportunity along the way. in general however, you should never steal things that you dont already have a fence for. keeping inventory in stock is just hazardous.

[Umidori]

Dangit. I keep coming to this thread expecting talk about rapiers and foils. It's just not sinking in for some reason.

*grumble, grumble*

~Umi

[CanRay]

Dangit. I keep coming to this thread expecting talk about rapiers and foils. It's just not sinking in for some reason.

*grumble, grumble*

~Umi

You're not the only one...

[Mantis]

Sorry guys. Engarde! Feel better?

[Lionhearted]

Fixed it for them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Avalon2099]

So what ended up happening, they only used a tag eraser, and didnt find all of the Stealth tags, the corp contacted KE and gave the RFID codes to KE, the group well 2 members of the group called contacts in order to set up a meet to fence the goods. KE tracked and found out the location of the meet, set up a sting at the meet, the 2 PCs managed to succeed in figuring out something was wring when they were arriving and kept driving. They were chased by 2 Aerial recon drones and a wheeled cruiser, the 2 PCs with the stolen van and gear managed to drive into a abandoned warehouse, ditch the van and try their luck in the ghoul infested sewers, they got into a fire fight with a ghoul nest, before they were overwhelmed they found a rusted iron grate putting overflow into a lake, began to swim to Renton, many hours later they turn their commlinks back on, have lost the van and all the stolen weapons, but managed to avoid Arrest at the hands of KE and death at the claws of ghouls... they were so dejected...

[ShadowDragon8685]

If you've given your players 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for three runs, then you should consider yourself lucky they haven't started selling the bodies yet. That's lowball for one run, let alone three.

Stop dicking your players over. Knight Errant doesn't give a flying fuck if some tiny fish are selling some SINless microscopic fish's armor jackets for beer and ammo money. Stolen vans, they might care about, but only if it was stolen from someone with a SIN, or from a corp.

[Lionhearted]

I got suggested the following
Karma reward for run * 2500 +(No of Complications)*1.1
Per player!
This is not including individual or daily karma but just karma for the mission itself.
So an 3 karma mission
(Survive 1, Objectives 1, Challenge/threat 1) with no complications would net them 7500¥ Per player, and this is on the difficulty level of "deliver package here" if you were to add a time restriction add 10% to the final (8250¥)
So, If they got 20k from three runs they basically been rescuing kittens...
Shadowdragons sig is very fitting here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You gave the poor chumps karma for their effort I hope?
Even if they didn't win, it was a learning experience

[FuelDrop]

Our group has gained a reputation for looting helicopters. Not guns and armour (Though we will take them as targets of opportunity, such as if they're already in a vehicle we jack), but fully kitted out strike choppers. Mainly from NeoNET strike teams who decide to get involved in a run that doesn't concern them.

Fortunately between our hacker, the fact that about half the group carry high-end jammers on runs (our group's professionalism varies wildly), and the fact that we have a warehouse in the barrens with a retracting roof and faraday cage we've been able to strip out all the RFID tags in each chopper so far (It generally takes several days of hard work and sometimes involves replacing components if the tag is embedded and can't be erased). We generally keep them rather than fence them, as our airborne assets have a disturbingly high rate of attrition.

[Avalon2099]

If you've given your players 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for three runs, then you should consider yourself lucky they haven't started selling the bodies yet. That's lowball for one run, let alone three.

Stop dicking your players over. Knight Errant doesn't give a flying fuck if some tiny fish are selling some SINless microscopic fish's armor jackets for beer and ammo money. Stolen vans, they might care about, but only if it was stolen from someone with a SIN, or from a corp.

Not trying to dick them over, more trying to keep the cash from going into ridiculous levels where they are buying everything they want right away even with Availability and the like. The first "run" as it were was the starter adventure for the bar where the johnson gets shot at by gangers, the second one was something I made up and the third was On the Run, which the PCs finished by simply giving the disc to the Johnson and not bothering with investigating further. Also I should mention that its 20,000 each.

All of the equipment was owned by a Corporation that they were trying to fence, and all the people who owned the gear were employed the corporation. But thank you for your opinion, it has been noted.

I got suggested the following
Karma reward for run * 2500 +(No of Complications)*1.1
Per player!
This is not including individual or daily karma but just karma for the mission itself.
So an 3 karma mission
(Survive 1, Objectives 1, Challenge/threat 1) with no complications would net them 7500¥ Per player, and this is on the difficulty level of "deliver package here" if you were to add a time restriction add 10% to the final (8250¥)
So, If they got 20k from three runs they basically been rescuing kittens...
Shadowdragons sig is very fitting here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You gave the poor chumps karma for their effort I hope?
Even if they didn't win, it was a learning experience

Nice system, I shall try it for a run and see how it works out. Thanks.

Currently up to 52 Karma, I think I am having a problem with giving them too much Karma vs money ratio. This system is drastically different than other games I have run, so balancing things and keeping it fair for the players is much harder in this game, than it has been in any other game i have ran.

And yes they got Karma for the loss of the stolen SUV and gear, suriving the ghouls and evading the KE.

Being a very new GM to this system feels very unforgiving, and at times feels unrewarding for myself. But it would seem I am the only one with stories to tell, inclination to run them.

[Mantis]

Unforgiving? Never! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Balancing karma and cash can be a bit tricky. It depends somewhat on your team make up. If they are heavy in magic and/or technomancers, then they want more karma and if they are tech/cyber heavy then they want more cash. Balanced and they want both. Naturally the first few runs usually pay less (no one knows you, you get offered crap jobs, you have no rep, etc) and then you build up from there.
Over the last few campaigns I have either run or played for 4th ed, we seem to have averaged out to about 1000¥-1200¥ per point of karma over the long term. This seems to be a good balance for our gaming style and these campaigns have been long term (ending at between 400-600 karma) and with the characters developing at a reasonable pace. This payout has been only for the jobs themselves. Creative players will find ways to double dip on payment or sell off high end items (cyberware, foci, vehicles) taken from enemies (just not jackets).
If you have only run 4 adventures for your players so far though, and they have 52 karma then yeah, cash is pretty low. But then 52 karma for 4 adventures is probably too much. I'd say 40 would be around the top end for karma awarded and most likely less if the runs were cake walks. Going forward try to aim for one of the formulas we've given and also make sure you layout just what sort of things you are awarding karma for so you have an idea of what the base karma reward will be. You can't really determine what the players will do to earn extra (roleplay, ideas etc) of course but setting a cap on karma rewards per mission is a good idea so you can keep control on character advancement. Tie the cash to the karma and you can control them both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

You should also take a second look at the availability rules Avalon, it seem like limiting cash to prevent things from going crazy is necessary, but really the time it takes to get gear is enough to balance things, I tend to limit major purchases to downtime between runs only, usually they don't have more then a month to work with.

I don't know whether it's a house rule but whenever you want to buy several things at once you add together the availabilities for the threshold and the costs for time intervals.
Remember to roll connection checks to see if their contacts are available aswell.

With services that require skilled labour (implant clinic, weapon modifications etc.) you must find someone to do that for you to, unless you get the item through that person of course.