[X] My Assistant

[Lionhearted]

Having blue (or neon green, or rainbow-dash-like multicolor)

*Grin* You gave me an idea...

[Draco18s]

Becasue you can re-dye your natural hair a different color. Not so with the NQ Blue Hair. Thought that was obvious. *shrug*

1) Actually you can redye your blue hair another color. You can also shave it off. No need to pay karma (as Umidori points out).
2) I was referring to a single-situation event. If your hair is blue, then it is gawd damned blue in that situation. Someone is either going to react negatively, positively, or not, based on your hair color. If there's no difference in their reaction to natural blue vs. dyed blue, then natural blue is not a drawback. Getting a negative reaction, stepping into a shower stall, redying your hair, and coming back isn't really going to change anything.

[All4BigGuns]

It's to prevent people from sitting down with the book for an hour and using SURGE to just build the perfect 'Combat creature' with specially tailored 'flaws' or disadvantages, specificly chosen to NOT be suich for that specific character.

I.E. If you're a mutant with cool powers, your mutation is not under your control and there's some bad things that come along with it. How do we know? because the -rules- tell you so.

Personally I'd like to pick my own flaws. But then I'm one of the sorts that play out the flaws alot more than the benifits. lol Flaws define you. For Shadowrun and SURGE, you MUST take them. I'd prefer to take my own. There are few game masters that I'd trust not to give me a Tucan beek or something. lol.

I can totally see why some GMs would pass out the flaws to a SURGE character, to make sure they were difficulties.

The character may not "have control" of the mutation, but the player should. It is his character, not the GM's. Sure, there are GMs out there who will be reasonable about what to pick, but there are those out there who will pick the absolutely most debilitating for the character just so they can sit back and cackle maniacally--no matter which one is in the minority, that the latter type exists should preclude the GM picking those 'flaws', the whole "one person ruins it for everyone" deal.

[Lionhearted]

Well look at this way Bigguns, if you're going to pick the most min-max positive selection you can think of, I'm gonna make you a greased up ant-eater with bug eyes... Fair is fair (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Dude, people pulling those shenanigans are not the majority of players, nor is everyone defending the player's right to have control over his character "just trying to 'min/max'--something that is CONSTANTLY used entirely incorrectly*--all the way to the bank".

* For instance, people on either forum will say that a character with two 1s in attributes is "min/max". No, it's not. Someone who does "min/max" would never take a 1 in an attribute, as that creates a massive weakness and "min/max" is all about removing as much weakness as possible.

[Lionhearted]

Yes, there's two scenarios here that are left untold
Scenario 1: "So I got this idea for a character with snake traits, you know unblinking eyes, scales, keen scent..."
vs
"So I got this character with Orange eyes and Chest hair in the shape of canada, and also I got metagenetic improvement..."

Which one do you think I would turn into an ant eater?
and yes I would probably let the first example take +attibute but only for reaction or agility

[All4BigGuns]

Yes, there's two scenarios here that are left untold
Scenario 1: "So I got this idea for a character with snake traits, you know unblinking eyes, scales, keen scent..."
vs
"So I got this character with Orange eyes and Chest hair in the shape of canada, and also I got metagenetic improvement..."

Which one do you think I would turn into an ant eater?
and yes I would probably let the first example take +attibute but only for reaction or agility

I may not like the second one, but all I'm gonna do is roll my eyes a little. I'm not going to force a player into something they don't want to play just because what they made doesn't fit what I like.

[Mäx]

Quite a few? Which ones, please? Point them out. Anything that lacks a mechanical disadvantage, please show to me. I'll gladly disapprove of them as well.

Read again i didn't say no mechanical disadvantage, i said unnoticeable(as they dont change how you look), but here's a list anyway:
Berserker,Critter Spook,Nocturnal,Impaired(Attribute),Slow Healer and Symbiosis
Also Balance Receptor,Bicardiac,Electrosense,Keen-Eared,Low-Light Visio(can be),Magnetosense, Natural Venom.Ogre Stomach,Thermographic Vision and Vomeronasai Organ from positive side.

By the strict RAW even if all your qualities are from that list you still have distinctive style, but really GM has to be quite a dick to enforce that.
Where as if you have blue hair, you have now room to complain if some one who knows that can track you down more easily.

[Lionhearted]

I may not like the second one, but all I'm gonna do is roll my eyes a little. I'm not going to force a player into something they don't want to play just because what they made doesn't fit what I like.

He always have the option to go back to the drawing board and make a proper concept...
Like a player of mine
"I want to make a counterspell expert..."
*two seconds later*
"Can I play a gnome?"

[All4BigGuns]

He always have the option to go back to the drawing board and make a proper concept...

The emphasized portion is exactly the problem. This smacks of "elitist" thinking to me.

[Lionhearted]

It wouldn't if you knew some of my players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm willing to let a lot of things fly, providing you got reasoning to back it up.

[All4BigGuns]

It wouldn't if you knew some of my players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm willing to let a lot of things fly, providing you got reasoning to back it up.

Actually, it still would. There is no such thing as a "proper concept".

[Lionhearted]

Actually, it still would. There is no such thing as a "proper concept".

In an absolute sense...
But there is such a thing as having no concept and just building a character around numbers without any sort of cohesiveness, theme or personality.
It has less to do with what you are and more to do with "what's your story".
There's of course outright broken things that I never let fly.

[All4BigGuns]

In an absolute sense...
But there is such a thing as having no concept and just building a character around numbers without any sort of cohesiveness, theme or personality.

And there's nothing wrong with starting out that way and letting things get more fleshed out as play goes on.

[Umidori]

Read again i didn't say no mechanical disadvantage, i said unnoticeable(as they dont change how you look), but here's a list anyway:

Perhaps you should be the one to be doing the rereading, as this is something like the fourth time I've said it, but...

MY COMPLAINT IS ABOUT THE MECHANICS. If your response fails to address the MECHANICS, you are wasting your time. If you aren't talking about the MECHANICS, I don't want to hear it. Please, for the sake of my sanity, stay on topic.

Berserker,Critter Spook,Nocturnal,Impaired(Attribute),Slow Healer and Symbiosis.

Berserker - Chock full of game mechanics. Composure Test, Berserk status, +1 to physical attributes while -1 to mental attributes, Willpower X 1D6 Combat Turn duration, triggers Adrenaline Pumps.

Critter Spook - Inflicts a -2 penalty on animal handling tests, applies Fear effect on animals with 5 meters, in combat applies a "Taunt" effect to critters, driving them to target the spook first.

Impaired Attribute - Your natural maximum in an attribute is lowered by one, which also affects your augmented maximum.

Slow Healer - Inflicts a -2 penalty on all healing tests.

Symbiosis - Area attunement based on Essence, Body + Willpower test to resist, once attuned receive +1 to Outdoors and Social Skills while in attuned area, if area is "unhealthy" suffer -2 to all actions from mild "allergy".

These all have mechanical disadvantages. I asked you to find negative qualities that do not have mechanical disadvantages. Please try again.

Also Balance Receptor,Bicardiac,Electrosense,Keen-Eared,Low-Light Visio(can be),Magnetosense, Natural Venom.Ogre Stomach,Thermographic Vision and Vomeronasai Organ from positive side.

I... these... these are... positive... qualities. Of course they aren't going to have mechanical disadvantages. Are you drunk, or something? Or just being absurdly pedantic? Because even if it's the latter, they do actually have mechanical disadvantages - their BP costs.

By the strict RAW even if all your qualities are from that list you still have distinctive style, but really GM has to be quite a dick to enforce that. Whereas if you have blue hair, you have no room to complain if some one who knows that can track you down more easily.

I would agree with you... if Unusual Hair actually affected Distinctive Style in any way. It does not.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

I would agree with you... if Unusual Hair actually affected Distinctive Style in any way. It does not.

Yes it does.

It is a Metagenic Quality.

All Metagenic Qualities are "advanced character options".

All Advanced Character Options carry the full mechanics of Distinctive Style, in addition to their specific effects.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If Unusual Hair said that it was Dye-Resistant, maybe. Sadly, it does not.

Or If it said that it imposed an additional layer of Distinctive Style, sure, I'd give you that in a heartbeat. If it said anything at all about anything of any sort having anything to do with substantial costs to the player or character, that'd be just dandy.

But all it says is that a character's hair "changes to an unusual color or texture, or grows from her body in unusual patterns or areas".

Oh, and it "is incompatible with other natural or artificial hair modifications". Which only really precludes taking Animal Pelage or Mood Hair. (Animal Pelage counts as Unusual Hair anyway, according to its entry.)

In fact, those are the only, actual mechanical effects of Unusual Hair - you cannot have both it and Animal Pelage, or it and Mood Hair. (Or cyberhair, but that's just fluff, so who cares?)

~Umi

Ummm Dying Hair is a natural hair modification, is it not? So, obviously, dying does not work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

And there's nothing wrong with starting out that way and letting things get more fleshed out as play goes on.

I want something I can grab on to and play off with a character, if you give me a blank sheet with stats I'm gonna atleast ask you to answer the 20 questions before I even consider letting you through.
Like this guy in my group he got Cha 1 and Str 1, his concept is a recluse tech nerd, doesn't need to be hard.
We had some great fun playing out those flaws, but he's also allowed to shine with his skills.

[Umidori]

Yes it does.

It is a Metagenic Quality.

All Metagenic Qualities are "advanced character options".

All Advanced Character Options carry the full mechanics of Distinctive Style, in addition to their specific effects.

Clarification. If it affected Distinctive Style in any meaningful way. You already have DS from being a Changeling, Unusual Hair doesn't add to that, at least not according to any rules I'm aware of.

Please don't mistake me for arguing that this is how it SHOULD be, by the way. I'm actually doing the opposite. I think the Runner's Companion rules, particularly the metagenetic stuff, is very sloppily put together. Hence why I'm complaining about Unusual Hair in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Umidori]

Ummm Dying Hair is a natural hair modification, is it not? So, obviously, dying does not work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're actively trying to piss me off now, aren't you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

You know damn well what "a natural hair modification" is, you cheeky bastard. Please don't mess with me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Unusual hair is fine for werewolf syndrome, would be nice if they were a bit more stringent with what it could be though... Like things you can't achieve by going to the supermart.
Extravagant eyes is worse as even the quality assumes people won't give a drek.

[_Pax._]

Oh, and it "is incompatible with other natural or artificial hair modifications". Which only really precludes taking Animal Pelage or Mood Hair. (Animal Pelage counts as Unusual Hair anyway, according to its entry.)

Fiber Optic hair is also out.

[_Pax._]

Clarification. If it affected Distinctive Style in any meaningful way. You already have DS from being a Changeling, Unusual Hair doesn't add to that, at least not according to any rules I'm aware of.

Each Advanced Character Option comes with Distinctive Style. They stack.

Please don't mistake me for arguing that this is how it SHOULD be, by the way. I'm actually doing the opposite. I think the Runner's Companion rules, particularly the metagenetic stuff, is very sloppily put together. Hence why I'm complaining about Unusual Hair in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

I agree with you on principle. I just don't think the problem is quite as bad as you've been presenting it to be.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're actively trying to piss me off now, aren't you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

You know damn well what "a natural hair modification" is, you cheeky bastard. Please don't mess with me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

Not really, no... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My point is that if you choose to not enforce the negativity of the Quality, that is not the quality's fault. The Unnatural Hair Color Quality is purely fluff, but it is still a negative. I choose to ENFORCE the notion that you CANNOT dye the hair (after all it is a natural Modification... can't argue that because you are modifying it with dye). Sure, you can choose to shave it all off... until it grows back, you still look like a freak (distinctive) becasue you have hints of blue where your hair is growing back, but until it does, you are missing all body hair. Kinda wierd, don't you think?

Is it more work for a GM. Perhaps. Is it any greater an amount of work? No, no more so than remembering the character has an allergy to sunlight. *shrug*

[Glyph]

I think it is easily inferred that each distinctive trait from SURGE gives you a level of distinctive style. It is not explicitly spelled out, but it is still an easy stretch of logic to make, to the extent that I would call it a rules interpretation, rather than a house rule.


I don't always agree with All4BigGuns, but he is correct that the GM has no business picking out a character's negative qualities. The justification of cutting down "min-maxing" doesn't wash - if a concept doesn't pass muster, then reject it, and let the player know why. If you get a sheet with SURGE II, with celerity and glamour for the positive qualities, and astral hazing for the negative quality, and you don't like it, then tell the player something like "Sorry, but I want to see something visually obvious for class 2 SURGE, like unusual skin and hair coloration at least. Plus, I don't allow the astral hazing flaw, because I think it should be solely the province of things like cyberzombies." That's a million times better than going "I'm changing his negative quality to cephalopoidal skull, ha, ha, ha!" That's just douchebaggery.