[X] My Assistant

[X-Kalibur]

Each feature should have been assigned a "freak index", with the total from both positives and negatives producing the "Gene Freak" penalty. Neoteny, for example, would have a 0 IMO; okay so you look like a kid, or a tweenager at best. You're still not bright purple, scaley, with a tail and a glowing beak ...!!

SURGE'd TM that has neoteny and Glamour. "No mister, I ain't one of those techno-whatsits. But that drone behind you with the LMG thinks you should leave now".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh you've just been hanging with the wrong people, that whole spider thing you got going? The extreme clubbing scene will just Lo-ve it!

That is quite possible... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

erm, wait, did not every last single one of the metagenetic qualities, both visible and invisible, render one a freak?

No, they all give you the distinctive style quality. The freaks modifier only applies to the more extreme SURGE qualities, such as insectoid features.

There are certainly negative SURGE qualities that are a lot more detrimental than others, but there has never been much parity in quality costs - some are bargains, while others should cost a lot less (positive), or be worth a lot more (negative). But while the more extreme qualities may seem to offer more disadvantages, they also tend to be taken by people who want to play the outcast/pariah type of character. That doesn't mean I wouldn't house rule a few minor changes if I was the GM (deformity level: 1 should be 10 points, not 5, for example - although the additional penalty would be non-ambiguous).

[Lionhearted]

Some of the negative ones aren't negative enough aswell... 5 BP for blue hair?
Im okay when it's used for werewolf syndrome kind of deals, but really? unusual hair colour qualifies?
I knew a girl with blue hair that liked to wear various coloured patterned lenses (including a pair made to look like radioactivity signs) Didn't stand out as a metagenetic freak to me...

[_Pax._]

I have to agree about the hair color. Shows how far we've come from the "80's but with elves and cyber" aesthetic.

[Stahlseele]

@Glyph:
Aaah yes, i think i got that mixed up.

[FuelDrop]

Some of the negative ones aren't negative enough aswell... 5 BP for blue hair?
Im okay when it's used for werewolf syndrome kind of deals, but really? unusual hair colour qualifies?
I knew a girl with blue hair that liked to wear various coloured patterned lenses (including a pair made to look like radioactivity signs) Didn't stand out as a metagenetic freak to me...

I had a character with one of the hair qualities (Specifically mood hair). My GM and I discussed it and decided that one side effect of the mutation was that the hair was extremely resistant to dying, with nanite-based disguises required to conceal it effectively for more than a few hours. It made the quality actually have some impact for my face character.

[Teulisch]

i suspect the real problem with changelings rests with 3rd, rather than 4th. they were a part of 'year of the comet', and later migrated to core rules from a supplement without much change. some of them are a tip of the hat to earthdawn, while others are just strange. Overall, its not really a balanced selection as the original version had rules for random mutation of existing characters. it does allow for a huge number of very strange characters, but a good chunk of it is just a list of random negative effects, rather than well thought out or balanced options.

really, i believe the most imbalanced options were to modify attribute maximums. surge class II, metagenic improvement(20), impair a different attribute, and grab some blue hair. stack on a genetic upgrade, and now your at +2 to an attribute maximum on your metahuman.

[Umidori]

I had a character with one of the hair qualities (Specifically mood hair). My GM and I discussed it and decided that one side effect of the mutation was that the hair was extremely resistant to dying, with nanite-based disguises required to conceal it effectively for more than a few hours. It made the quality actually have some impact for my face character.

Even difficult to dye hair can still easily be concealed. And while Mood Hair at least betrays your emotions, Unusual Hair costs the same amount of BP, but has almost no practical downside to it. Contrast that to something like a facial Deformity, again giving the exact same 5 BP, but inflicting -2 dice to perception tests and -6 dice to all social tests? That's just madness.

~Umi

[Glyph]

I don't have a problem with 5-point flaws being comparatively mild. Essentially, you are taking on a trait that is moderately but not impossibly difficult to hide, that makes your character stand out. Unusual hair, striking skin pigmentation, vestigial tail, scales, feathers, and so on. Personally, I think the deformity quality should be worth more than 5 points.

I would also add that if a changeling gets a quick, easy outpatient bit of biosculpting or cosmetic 'ware to get rid of one of these traits, they should be required to buy the flaw off.

[Umidori]

They are required to buy the flaw off. No "should" about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Tanegar]

A thought I just had:

Quadruped: 5BP Positive Metagenic Quality
The character's hips, shoulders, and limbs are modified to support quadrupedal locomotion. The character's base movement rates are doubled when moving on all fours, but bipedal movement becomes more awkward, incurring a 50% penalty to movement rate.

[Umidori]

But now you're constantly prone...?

~Umi

[_Pax._]

I should think he was probably picturing somethign closer to a gorilla, that CAN walk bipedally, or CAN walk quadrupedally (but still surprisingly upright).

In which case, it should probably be worth more than 5BP.

[Umidori]

The only thing that's comparable are Sasobonsams, who can walk and run while prone. And with those, you're trading a normal ghoul's Claws for Elongated Limbs as well as the ability to run while on all fours.

Metagenetic Claws cost 5 BP, but Ghoul Claws have +1 DV compared to the metagenic variety. Elongated limbs also cost 5 BP. Swapping the one for the other is roughly equal, with Ghoul claws being slightly more valuable than their metagenetic counterpart. Thus, running on all fours is worth however much that single +1 DV is worth. At the very most, 5 BP.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

.... so make it a 5BP trait, that requires you to already have Elongated Arms ...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

That kind of makes it into a 10 BP variant of Elongated Arms, though, and that's not really worth it in my mind.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Look at it as more of a Satyr LEgs for 5BP, that you can get if you have Elongated Arms.

I wouldn't penalise bipedal movement, mind you. Just give you the option to go twice as fast as normal, when on all fours.

[Umidori]

That might push the value up enough to justify it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~Umi

[Manunancy]

I still maintain that since Spider Spirits are not the same as Insect Spirits, people wouldn't react to them in the same way.

Just because spiders are "scary" doesn't mean they're on the same level as the fear inspired by the known malevolence of Inspect Spirits. I wouldn't treat Spider features any differently than I would treat Scorpion features, or Shrimp features, or Crab features, or Lobster features, or any other arthropods.

Say, maybe that's an idea. Change Insectoid Features to Arthropoid Features, and make it a two level quality. At the 5 BP level, you look like one of the non-insect arthropods and suffer the Freaks modifier and the Critter Spook effect. At the 10 BP level, you resemble insect spirit flesh forms, inspiring people to attack you, perhaps if they fail a composure check.

~Umi

From the average Joe's point of view, both are chitinous, with eyes that don't look like eyes should (spider eyes may not be faceted, but they're still lacking eyelids, pupils and similar mamailan eye features) and nasty moving parts were lips should be. Which means he'll probably react just the same way. Sure when enlarged to human scales the features may be distictive to teh trained eye, but how many peoples have had a good, close look at insects and spiders to tell their facial fetures apart ?

How do you think District 9's aliens would be viewed in Shadowrun ? My bet would on the 'torchs and pitchforks' end of spectrum.

[Mäx]

Some of the negative ones aren't negative enough aswell... 5 BP for blue hair?

Considering all the other negative qualities that are worth 5BP, like mild allergy to a uncommon substance or -2 dice to resist simsense damage etc. , i don't see much problem with this.

[Umidori]

The difference is those actually impose mechanical penalties.

You lose dice to your allergy if you don't protect yourself from it. You lose dice to resist simsense damage if you don't actively avoid it. But there's absolutely no penalty to running around with a two foot long purple pompadour, or having chest hair that naturally grows in the shape of Australia.

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Those are mild inconveniences, in a world with obvious cyberlimb replacements, and 2,5m high trolls no one is even going to bat an eyelash at blue hair...

[Umidori]

Exactly. From a mechanical standpoint, you're getting free build points, and that's not kosher.

A negative quality is dependent on causing at least some form of problem for the player, otherwise it doesn't give the points. GMs are expressly instructed not to allow negative qualities that will never be an issue for the player, like not letting most of the hacking-based negative qualities be taken by someone who never plans on hacking.

~Umi

[Mäx]

You lose dice to your allergy if you don't protect yourself from it. You lose dice to resist simsense damage if you don't actively avoid it. But there's absolutely no penalty to running around with a two foot long purple pompadour, or having chest hair that naturally grows in the shape of Australia.

Yes there is, your easier to find if when you have such distinctive features.
So if someone sees your blue hair on the run, it makes it that much easier to track you down, yes you can try to avoid that happening, just like you can avoid damaging simsense and uncommon allergy substances.