[X] My Assistant

[Umidori]

Yes there is, your easier to find if when you have such distinctive features.

That'd be true if it imposed Distinctive Style. It does not.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Wait, yes it does. ALL the negative metagenics do.

[Umidori]

All the advanced character options in this book automatically suffer the effects of Distinctive Style and do not get a BP bonus.

Now, what's an "advanced character option"? Anything other than a normal metahuman? Definitely the Metavariants and the Sapient Critters and the Free Spirits and the AIs and the Infected... but does that also mean Changelings?

Presumably it does... but if so, why does Glamour, a metagenetic positive quality, bother to say that it inflicts the effects of Distinctive Style? If only Changelings and Dryads can ever possess it, and they both already have Distinctive Style because they are advanced character options, why the need to state this fact?

Additionally, there's nothing I've found so far stating that specifically negative metagenetic qualities impose Distinctive Style. In fact, none of the other metagenetic qualities besides Glamour even mention Distinctive Style in the slightest.

And even IF all negative metagenetic qualities DO impose Distinctive Style, your argument STILL doesn't hold water, because while that would mean Unusual Hair imposes Distinctive Style, so would all the other 5 BP negative metagentic qualities! So again, you're getting free BP without any penalization that you don't already get from being a changeling, or from posessing any of the other 5 BP qualities, on top of their other penalties.

~Umi

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think people might be sticking too hard to numbers and 'crunch' vs the 'fluff'.

Yes, they're distinctive because you're a changeling. It's a sort of package deal. Even if there's no "This ___ gives you ____ dice penalties" It's there, it's a role play aspect vs the roll play. You're supposed to stand out if you have blue hair, because you stand out. That's why it's a negative thing vs just a quirk.

Joe Blow might be able to die his hair blue, but the changeling with blue hair might notbe able to cover it. Dyes might just slid off the hair, or the hair color might come through the dye very very fast. As in you might be able to dye it for a few hours but then the dye is worn off by the unique oils in the hair or something. Or it might be ALL the hair is blue. Head hair, eyebrows, eyelashes, facial hair, even the body hair which isn't too prevelent on most people might be bright electric blue on this guy.

There's tons of ways to make 'blue hair' a bad thing. But the most easy is "There's not THAT many people with blue hair" you're going to stand out in the seas of browns, the few blondes and the few reds. Yes I know that in shadowrun your alt life styles embrace strange coloring and stuff. You can see it today in clubs. Sure... out side of clubs, not so much. Sure you might see one person with strange hair a day. Maybe more if you live in the big city.. but if you're walking down the street and you pass someone with neon green hair or something you remember it. If a cop asks later you can point um out. If you're LOOKING for someone with neon green hair, they stand out. Sure they can put on a hat but then it's hey that guy's in a hat, is HE the one with green or blue hair?

So it can and would be negative if you're a runner and someone that didn't want to be fingered. You gotta think after a short amount of time you'd be described as "The SURGE guy with blue hair" and it would start to affect your runs. Security forces or other runners might not look twice at a guiy with brown hair but if a blue haired guy walked by and they knew of a shadow runner with bright blue hair, he's going to check and make sure it's NOT the runner he knows with blue hair, and if it is.. you're blown.

Remember also not every surge guy or gal is a total SPIDER FACE MUTANT MAN or cat girl or fish person. Some of the lessor levels are meant to be pretty mild. Some just have a bit of extra metahuman traits. A elf with a dwarf's theromo vision, or elf ears on a human, or something. The 'extent' of freakyness varies. So some of the traits, like hair or skin color might seem minor, because not every SURGE person has an elephant or walrus head.

[Umidori]

I don't fucking care. You're ignoring my entire point. I'm not talking about roleplaying or how to justify the quality. I'm talking about cold hard numbers and mechanics. And the mechanics here are plainly broken.

Unusual Hair gives 5 BP for free. That is not how negative qualities are supposed to work.

It doesn't impose any specific penalties of its own. And even if we allow that it imposes Distinctive Style, that's redundant because you already HAVE Distinctive Style if you're a changeling! It literally does NOTHING except give you build points. That is my complaint.

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

I don't fucking care. You're ignoring my entire point. I'm not talking about roleplaying or how to justify the quality. I'm talking about cold hard numbers and mechanics. And the mechanics here are plainly broken.

Unusual Hair gives 5 BP for free. That is not how negative qualities are supposed to work.

It doesn't impose any specific penalties of its own. And even if we allow that it imposes Distinctive Style, that's redundant because you already HAVE Distinctive Style if you're a changeling! It literally does NOTHING except give you build points. That is my complaint.

~Umi

Multiple instances of distinctive style stack, so logically the negative metagenic qualities are additional instances of distinctive style. That means taking a 10 point metagenic negative quality could be argued to make you less distinctive than taking 2 five-pointers.

...

I think. I could be completely wrong.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't fucking care. You're ignoring my entire point. I'm not talking about roleplaying or how to justify the quality. I'm talking about cold hard numbers and mechanics. And the mechanics here are plainly broken.

Unusual Hair gives 5 BP for free. That is not how negative qualities are supposed to work.

It doesn't impose any specific penalties of its own. And even if we allow that it imposes Distinctive Style, that's redundant because you already HAVE Distinctive Style if you're a changeling! It literally does NOTHING except give you build points. That is my complaint.

~Umi

Wow... hissy much? lol Take a moment and take a breath and look at your post freaking out about hair. lol

It's not for free. I've pointed out how it can be negative. Get your head out of dice numbers and penalties. Not everything is math on the sheet. It can be negative. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it so.

Go re-read the section. Minor SURGE expression is.. minor. Some isn't even visible. I mean some of them are 'invisible'. Thermo sight? You can't detect that walking down the street. Allergies or something. Again. Minor.

Your complaint seems to be that not every negative thing gives you elephant ears, or frog eyes on the sides of your head. The "Mechanics" You seem to be sooooo excited about don't always work out to numbers or dice. Some of them ARE roleplaying. Some of it IS the fact that out of 500 people, you're likely to be the only one with blue hair, and if you shoot someone or do any of the things that Shadowruns often have you do, 'getting away' is going to be that much harder if you're the only guy out of 500 that has that blue hair.. or the green skin.. or whatever.

[ShadowDragon8685]

As regards the Insectoid Features SURGE quality and/or the similar genetics enhancement...

Yeah, my current character, upon seeing something walking around looking like a bug, would likely not bother waiting for the Assensing test, she'd call down the heavy fire from the Spirits. Two Force 10 Fireballs oughta do it.

I can't imagine any player/character behaving much differently, really.



Mind you, I think -5 is dramatically, stupidly lowballing that negative quality. -20 would be more like it. That's almost as bad as Dark Secret (Last remaining living member of Winternight).

[phlapjack77]

Your complaint seems to be that not every negative thing gives you elephant ears, or frog eyes on the sides of your head. The "Mechanics" You seem to be sooooo excited about don't always work out to numbers or dice. Some of them ARE roleplaying. Some of it IS the fact that out of 500 people, you're likely to be the only one with blue hair, and if you shoot someone or do any of the things that Shadowruns often have you do, 'getting away' is going to be that much harder if you're the only guy out of 500 that has that blue hair.. or the green skin.. or whatever.

His point* seems to be that if there's a rule for it, if it interacts with the character mechanically, it should actually have mechanics that make sense. I agree with this. Blue hair gives a character 5BP to spend on something else. This is a mechanical benefit. There should be a mechanical downside to balance it. Otherwise, there's no need for this quality to have any mechanics. You can just roleplay it and say "My character has blue hair !1!!one".

This game has rules for a reason. Otherwise let's just sit around and tell stories free-form and save money on buying books.

* sorry if I got your point wrong, please correct me if so

[Pepsi Jedi]

His point* seems to be that if there's a rule for it, if it interacts with the character mechanically, it should actually have mechanics that make sense. I agree with this. Blue hair gives a character 5BP to spend on something else. This is a mechanical benefit. There should be a mechanical downside to balance it. Otherwise, there's no need for this quality to have any mechanics. You can just roleplay it and say "My character has blue hair !1!!one".

This game has rules for a reason. Otherwise let's just sit around and tell stories free-form and save money on buying books.

* sorry if I got your point wrong, please correct me if so

I'm pointing out that some 'mechanics' are dependent on role play in a role playing game. Other wise it's just numbers on a sheet with no story or point or reason. I've played for 20 years and I've seen many players that do such a thing. They'll mini max and what not just for numbers. Find "Maximum damage builds" and stuff that have no point as a character itself other than to 'mathematically, through the rules, not role play or character history, build the 'best' ____ there is. Be it Street Sam or Wizard, or whatever.

There's point to some things beyond numbers on your character sheet. This seems to be one of them. It's a minor negative trait that is -meant- to be played out. That's the duty of those that take such a flaw. You're supposed to be (( in theory at least)) Mature enough to not just take it for points and ignore it because there's no dice penalties. That and your game master is supposed to know it's on the sheet and use it as the flaw that it is. Why? Because you DID choose to take it as a flaw and get bonus points for it.

Now I know that's asking alot of some people. And some people's play style IS to just build the mathematical equation on the sheet, but RAW that's not how it's 'intended'. Some things in the role playing games are supposed to be played out. They may not give numerical problems, but they are meant to be played anyway.

[phlapjack77]

Now I know that's asking alot of some people. And some people's play style IS to just build the mathematical equation on the sheet, but RAW that's not how it's 'intended'. Some things in the role playing games are supposed to be played out. They may not give numerical problems, but they are meant to be played anyway.

I disagree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You seem to be ranting against people who min/max and don't roleplay at all. This isn't what I'm saying is the problem. It's perfectly ok to have blue hair and use that in role-playing. It should be used to make a living, breathing character. The player should incorporate this NQ into their character's identity.

What it shouldn't be is freebie points that have to use DM fiat to see any actual game results. Once again, I say that if this is your stance, stop buying books and just sit around with your friends and tell stories.

I've played for 20 years and I've seen many players that do such a thing.

I've been playing roleplaying games a long time too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

I disagree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You seem to be ranting against people who min/max and don't roleplay at all. This isn't what I'm saying is the problem. It's perfectly ok to have blue hair and use that in role-playing. It should be used to make a living, breathing character. The player should incorporate this NQ into their character's identity.

What it shouldn't be is freebie points that have to use DM fiat to see any actual game results. Once again, I say that if this is your stance, stop buying books and just sit around with your friends and tell stories.



I've been playing roleplaying games a long time too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's the thing, ALL Flaws are dependent on DM fiat. If you have an allergy to... sunlight for example, and your DM sets all the scenes at night, it negates any negative of the allergy. If you're allergic to pollutants and the GM never enforces it. Same thing. If you're playing a ghoul and you don't have to play out the acquisition of your human flesh (( At least every once in a while. not every single meal)) Then it's not a negative quality. If you have electric blue hair, head hair, eyebrows, eye lashes, pubic and even body hair and the GM never has it come into effect. Same thing. You don't need dice for it to be a 'thing'. The dice are just there to prevent 'I shot you/no you didn't' type things. The dice don't define your char. Your character's history and abilities, define what dice he HAS to roll.

I totally realize people play and have fun playing different ways, but to say "Those points are free if they don't have a --game mechanic-- is missing a large point of the flaw (( and flaws in general)) They're there to flesh out your character and to show that along with the good parts of SURGE there are some bad. It's not 'A needed number for mathematical equation of character creation'. They're there, but the 'math' isn't the point.

[FuelDrop]

That's the thing, ALL Flaws are dependent on DM fiat. If you have an allergy to... sunlight for example, and your DM sets all the scenes at night, it negates any negative of the allergy. If you're allergic to pollutants and the GM never enforces it. Same thing. If you're playing a ghoul and you don't have to play out the acquisition of your human flesh (( At least every once in a while. not every single meal)) Then it's not a negative quality. If you have electric blue hair, head hair, eyebrows, eye lashes, pubic and even body hair and the GM never has it come into effect. Same thing. You don't need dice for it to be a 'thing'. The dice are just there to prevent 'I shot you/no you didn't' type things. The dice don't define your char. Your character's history and abilities, define what dice he HAS to roll.

I totally realize people play and have fun playing different ways, but to say "Those points are free if they don't have a --game mechanic-- is missing a large point of the flaw (( and flaws in general)) They're there to flesh out your character and to show that along with the good parts of SURGE there are some bad. It's not 'A needed number for mathematical equation of character creation'. They're there, but the 'math' isn't the point.

Exactly. I mean, you could take Incompetent: Parachuting, and 99% of the time it would be 5 free points. Of course the 1% when it did have an effect would be fairly dramatic...

Also, pro tip: Do not take a run delivering biological weapons if you have the weak immune system negative quality. Particularly not if the bioweapon is used to create zombies. True story.

[phlapjack77]

That's the thing, ALL Flaws are dependent on DM fiat. If you have an allergy to... sunlight for example, and your DM sets all the scenes at night, it negates any negative of the allergy. If you're allergic to pollutants and the GM never enforces it. Same thing. If you're playing a ghoul and you don't have to play out the acquisition of your human flesh (( At least every once in a while. not every single meal)) Then it's not a negative quality. If you have electric blue hair, head hair, eyebrows, eye lashes, pubic and even body hair and the GM never has it come into effect. Same thing. You don't need dice for it to be a 'thing'. The dice are just there to prevent 'I shot you/no you didn't' type things. The dice don't define your char. Your character's history and abilities, define what dice he HAS to roll.

I totally realize people play and have fun playing different ways, but to say "Those points are free if they don't have a --game mechanic-- is missing a large point of the flaw (( and flaws in general)) They're there to flesh out your character and to show that along with the good parts of SURGE there are some bad. It's not 'A needed number for mathematical equation of character creation'. They're there, but the 'math' isn't the point.

But you can't reduce things this much. Going by your logic, the whole game is GM fiat. At least things like allergy have a mechanical effect, so that if your team decides to do a run during the day, this mechanic actually impacts the player in a totally obvious and predictable way. The ghoul has mechanical effects to what happens if they don't eat flesh often enough. It's the combination of the rules and the roleplay that make things fun. Otherwise let's play free-form storytelling.

I was thinking about this during lunch. It seems to me like the aspects of a good Quality involve a mechanical aspect and a game-affecting (RP'ing) aspect.

An example of a good quality is Toughness. The player is free to roleplay a "tough" character, not show pain when injured and all that. Come up with an interesting backstory on why the character is tough. AND it also gives a mechanical effect.

A bad example is already mentioned above. It has a roleplaying aspect, but no mechanical aspect.

How would you feel about Toughness not giving a mechanical benefit anymore? You can say the same for any Quality. Still going to take it? Why not pay points to raise your Agi to 6, roleplaying as a "super agile" character, but you don't get any benefits for Agi 6. Is this ok?

[phlapjack77]

Exactly. I mean, you could take Incompetent: Parachuting, and 99% of the time it would be 5 free points. Of course the 1% when it did have an effect would be fairly dramatic...

As bad as Incompetent:Parachuting would be, at least it would have a mechanical effect 1% of the time. Bad hair has an effect 0% of the time. Unless you just make stuff up, then anything is possible...

[Umidori]

That's the thing, ALL Flaws are dependent on DM fiat.

Except that even with your sunlight allergy example, there are inarguable, black and white factors. There are dictated effects that MUST occur for a given situation.

Is it daylight? Yes. Are you covered up? No. Do you possess a Mild allergy to sunlight? Yes. You suffer -2 dice to all actions and do not Regenerate if you possess that power. Same with pollutants, if you are exposed, you suffer a mechanical effect. Any GM that fails to enforce such mechanical effects is a bad GM.

For your ghouls example, no, actually, you do not have to play out the acquisiton of your flesh, at all. There are rules for folding it into your regular Lifestyle costs - and with good reason. Because maybe, just maybe, you don't want to be bothered making a big fuss out of that aspect of your character. Maybe you'd rather put your effort into other aspects of playing the game, or into roleplaying other aspects of your character, such that worrying about each and every pound of flesh just becomes tedious bookkeeping. But even here, there are mechanical rules in place - rules designed to allow you to pay a predetermined amount more nuyen than normal on your Lifestyle costs, instead of having to count every scrap and crumb. It's not GM fiat. It isn't an arbitrary amount that varies from table to table - it is a flat, definite cost that is always the same and always incurred under the appropriate conditions.

You talk about a GM never having Unusual Hair come up. I say to you again, that is a bad GM. And you know what? I should fucking know, because I'm complaining about this from the point of view of being a GM. I don't like the fact that one of my players can choose to have a free 5 BP that I have to go out of my way to balance out. I don't want to have to tailor my missions in such a way as to try and punish them in order to make up for their extra character resources. I'd rather not have to houserule it away, or rely on fiat if I can at all help it.

I want precise rules that make sense. I want a game system that is reliable and clear, that doesn't leave me scratching my head over how to handle something that could easily be argued in five different ways with no one clear right answer. And despite the sheer complexity and intricacy of Shadowrun, and it's history of missteps and errors, it does a pretty decent job of providing a mechanical framework which is reasonable, reliable, and internally consistant.

You keep harping on about roleplay, roleplay, roleplay. But my grievances have NOTHING to do with roleplay, and everything to do with MECHANICS - that is to say, with the toolset I have available to help me craft quality roleplay that me and my table enjoy. I want my tools to work. I want them to serve my needs. I want them to be robust and flexible and sensible and well made. And you keep telling me the tools aren't the problem - that I just need to forget the tools and focus on the roleplay. Well I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

~Umi

[Weldûn]

Lvl 1 SURGE (w/Goring Horn [5], Keen Eared [5] and Bright Purple Skin [-5])... 5 pts.
Cyclopean Eye... +10 pts.
Ghoul... 35 pts.
Magician Quality, a Magic Rating of 4 and the Levitation spell.... 48 pts.

The look on the faces at your gaming table when they realize that you're playing a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater and you still aren't taking social penalties... priceless.

And just in case some of you weefle-runners out there don't get the reference... link

[Mäx]

As bad as Incompetent:Parachuting would be, at least it would have a mechanical effect 1% of the time. Bad hair has an effect 0% of the time. Unless you just make stuff up, then anything is possible...

It makes you easier to track down at all times, if some body knows you have a blue hair.

[Shortstraw]

Isn't the GM supposed to pick the negative metagenic qualities anyway?

[phlapjack77]

It makes you easier to track down at all times, if some body knows you have a blue hair.

Tell me how you would apply that in game, without 100% resorting to GM fiat. You can't.

[Shortstraw]

I would suggest anyone attempting to identify, trace or physically locate the character should receive a +3 dice pool modifier on all tests made during such attempts (inc Perception) - in other words apply distinctive style.

[phlapjack77]

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I'm sure there are many good ideas on how to actually represent Bad Hair Days. Distinctive Style makes sense. It's just that this is your own GM opinion. You're using GM fiat. Because there are no actual rules in the SR rulebook for this Quality.

[Umidori]

I feel like a broken record, but here goes...

Even if Distinctive Style does apply to Unusual Hair (which it doesn't seem to), it would also then apply to many other 5BP negative metagenetic qualities as well, in addition to their other effects. So you have a bunch of qualities that are valued at [Distinctive Style + Other Effect X], and they cost exactly the same amount of BP as Unusual Hair, which is only valued at [Distinctive Style]. There is a clear and obvious imbalance there.

~Umi

[Shortstraw]

Not all positive qualities/weapons/spells/adept powers are balanced either - it is never going to happen. As to whether distinctive style applies the side bar "what is a distinctive style" states "as would anyone with visible changeling traits" blue hair is a visible changeling trait therefore it is a distinctive style.

[Mäx]

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I'm sure there are many good ideas on how to actually represent Bad Hair Days. Distinctive Style makes sense. It's just that this is your own GM opinion. You're using GM fiat. Because there are no actual rules in the SR rulebook for this Quality.

The distinctive style has rules for it and being a changeling automaticly means you have that.
Now by RAW being changeling in and itself gives you distinctive style, but IMO the person tracking you should actually know what distinctive about you to get that bonus(this isn't actually required by RAW) and unatural hair color is one such distinctive feature. Where as qualities like Impaired(Attribute) while having a mechanical effect(witch is pretty much meaningless) doesn't make you stand out all and as such doesn't make you easier to track down.