[X] My Assistant

[Glyph]

Changeling traits do give distinctive style, which has specific rules mechanics. There is also the prejudice that changelings are supposed to face, which should not be every single NPC, but should still be common enough. Blue hair is more of a disadvantage than things like prejudiced/biased/ghouls, or impaired Attribute/dump stat, or incompetence/aerospace pilot, or scorched.

Isn't the GM supposed to pick the negative metagenic qualities anyway?

It is presented as a possible option, but it is a stupid suggestion. Other than setting the overall guidelines (such as things which are disallowed or treated differently in that game), the GM has no business making choices for the player in character creation, unless the player chooses an option that gives the GM that ability (such as amnesia or mysterious implant).

[Pepsi Jedi]

As bad as Incompetent:Parachuting would be, at least it would have a mechanical effect 1% of the time. Bad hair has an effect 0% of the time. Unless you just make stuff up, then anything is possible...

As pointed out, it has an effect. It doesn't have dice to roll. The effect is on you to play out. Not just throw dice. The effect is social and visual. Not just " I have a -1 on X roll". yes it's the job of the GM to enforce flaws. They're plot hooks and things that make the character interesting. The lack of a dice mechanic doesn't mean they can't be very very effective. In one of the examples above having that blue hair could easily get you killed if it's recognized. (( Probably in conjunction with something else)).

You don't need a numerical thing to roll or penalize for an 'effect' to be there. The first time the cops or corp security puts out an APB for the a guy, and the first bullet point in the description is 'BRIGHT BLUE HAIR" along with other descriptors and what not, you'll see how huge of an effect it has. With out the dice there to roll. Cops and corpsec will come out of the woodwork and the char will be all

"MAN WHY ME???? There's no -1 on my sheet!"

"Yeah smart guy but you're the only one in the area with blue hair and it stands out. They're coming to see if you are the guy they're looking for, as you have bright blue hair" ( Note it doesn't have to be blue hair. could be green, or hot pink, or purple skin, or canary yellow, ect.))

[Shortstraw]

Changeling traits do give distinctive style, which has specific rules mechanics. There is also the prejudice that changelings are supposed to face, which should not be every single NPC, but should still be common enough. Blue hair is more of a disadvantage than things like prejudiced/biased/ghouls, or impaired Attribute/dump stat, or incompetence/aerospace pilot, or scorched.


It is presented as a possible option, but it is a stupid suggestion. Other than setting the overall guidelines (such as things which are disallowed or treated differently in that game), the GM has no business making choices for the player in character creation, unless the player chooses an option that gives the GM that ability (such as amnesia or mysterious implant).

"gamemasters may chose to take on Negative Metagenetic qualitiy selection to ensure balance."

The player did pick a quality that gives the GM that ability.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Except that even with your sunlight allergy example, there are inarguable, black and white factors. There are dictated effects that MUST occur for a given situation.

Not everything in the world is 100% Yes or no. Sorry man. Not everything is binary. Some things are conditional and more subtil.

(( as a note it wouldn't let me quote you in small parts so I'm putting your stuff in italics
Is it daylight? Yes. Are you covered up? No. Do you possess a Mild allergy to sunlight? Yes. You suffer -2 dice to all actions and do not Regenerate if you possess that power. Same with pollutants, if you are exposed, you suffer a mechanical effect. Any GM that fails to enforce such mechanical effects [i]is a bad GM[/i]

Just like a GM that allows someone to take blue hair as a flaw, and get points for it, and never uses it is a "Bad GM" there's no difference between ignoring an allergy and ignoring a negative quality of this nature. It's the same. You just don't have to worry about dice. You have to worry about the game and the setting your in. Arguably alot harder. If you have a "SOLID BLACK AND WHITE FACTOR" you can do what SOOOOOO many bad players do. Take the flaws and then use the mechanics to 'get around them'. Not everyone does this, but if you've played more than a few times you know someone that does. That's a bad thing too. With something like the blue hair thing, yes it can be partially dependent on the GM, but it doesn't allow you to dodge your die penalty by using the mechanics against the setting.



For your ghouls example, no, actually, you do [i]not have to play out the acquisiton of your flesh, at all.[/i]

Then you're not playing a ghoul. You're geting the powers and hand waving huge parts of the character.

There are rules for folding it into your regular Lifestyle costs - and with good reason.

It still is a part of the character. It still has to be worked out, and if you're on a shadowrun that lasts longer than a few days, it's going to come up in game PDQ. You might have a way to get body parts in seattle but there's no "Corpses are Us" in the Ukraine that you can pick up your allotment of corpseflesh if you're out side that 'life style" thing.

Does it mean you have to role play out every meal? No. of course not. If a --------------huge defining characteristic------------ of your character is such immense and signifigant dietary restrictions and you ignore them, you're a bad player. Play something else.


Because maybe, just maybe, you don't want to be bothered making a big fuss out of that aspect of your character.

Then don't play a character who's defined by the fact that they must eat 5% of their body weight in cannibalistic flesh. lol Don't choose a character who's defined by that, then ignore it. That's lame on so many levels.


Maybe you'd rather put your effort into other aspects of playing the game, or into roleplaying other aspects of your character, such that worrying about each and every pound of flesh just becomes tedious bookkeeping.

Then don't play a ghoul! lol. And if you read up. I didn't say worry about each and every pound. I specificly said not every meal, but it's a huge part of the character. It'd be like playing a dwarf and ignoring the size and acting like you could dunk on a troll in Bball, or playing a troll and acting like he can crawl through a cat door no problem. If your char's are just numbers on a page, you're just playing the numbers. Not a character. And that's part of my point. Some people DO that. Some have fun doing that. I personally think it's lame and people that do that are horrible Role players. As they're not role playing. They're compairing numbers on a sheet with other numbers. Go play fantasy football. You know?



But even here, there are mechanical rules in place - rules designed to allow you to pay a predetermined amount more nuyen than normal on your Lifestyle costs, instead of having to count every scrap and crumb. It's not GM fiat. It isn't an arbitrary amount that varies from table to table - it is a flat, definite cost that is always the same and always incurred under the appropriate conditions.

And that's an artificial thing put into the game for ease of play. With ghouls for example, it's not a flat definite cost, as you're consumption of such is an illegal act. Your prices could change at the drop of a hat. Your organ grinder's could be caught or shot in the streets by cops and suddenly your only food source is gone. A character is NOT the numbers on the sheet. The numbers on the sheet are mechanics to explain the character.


You talk about a GM never having Unusual Hair come up. I say to you again, that is [i]a bad GM. [/i]

No. I pointed out it's part of the GM's job to make sure it DOES come up. I pointed out that lack of numbers attributed to it doesn't mean it never comes up. I pointed out that if the GM ignores it yes, it's a bad gm. Just like someone that puts it on the sheet and never plays it is a bad player.



And you know what? I should fucking know, because I'm complaining about this from the point of view of [i]being a GM. I don't like the fact that one of my players can choose to have a free 5 BP that I have to go out of my way to balance out. [/i]

You're just lazy. If you're a GM you should fucking know the flaws on your player's sheets and use them as a GM. If you need 100% of flaws to be 100% defined in 100% of the ways or you can't use them..... perhaps you shouldn't be GM. It's not a free 5 BP. It's a flaw. Its up to you to make something of it or make the character play it out. If you can't think of a way for such a thing to be a flaw, you're not trying.



I don't want to have to tailor my missions in such a way as to try and punish them in order to make up for their extra character resources.

Cry me a river. You don't have to Tailor your missions to 'punish' people. Know your player's characters flaws and use them when needed or when they come up. For example, if the guy has bright electric blue hair and he's trying to dodge a tail, it's going to be a bit harder. Doesn't mean you have to put that into every game.

All Im hearing is that you're lazy.




I'd rather not have to houserule it away, or rely on fiat if I can at all help it.

You don't have to house rule it at all. Just buck up and be a GM. Not everything's spelled out in 'Rules". You gotta actually think and stuff man.

I want precise rules that make sense.

Sadly there's not 'precise rules' for every single thing in a humans life. Do you make them perform checks to eat cereal? Or to wipe their butts? Do you make them make rolls to walk down the street, or put on their clothes? No? Probably not. Same thing. You don't need a rule for it, as a GM you just encorperate it. Simple as that.

I want a game system that is reliable and clear, that doesn't leave me scratching my head over how to handle something that could easily be argued in five different ways with no one clear right answer. And despite the sheer complexity and intricacy of Shadowrun, and it's history of missteps and errors, it does a pretty decent job of providing a mechanical framework which is reasonable, reliable, and internally consistant.

You're the GM. You don't have to 'argue' anything. If someone puts the flaw on their sheet, you point at it and go "There's no dice to that. I'm going to use it as I see fit. Period" and the player can accept it, or take it off his sheet. Boom. You're done. No arguments needed. If they don't trust you as a GM or don't want to put up with what ever creative hell you might dream up, they should find another flaw. I've had GMS that would flat out DELIGHT if someone took blue hair as a flaw, and boooooy they'd NEVER say it was a free point buy. They'd pay for every point in that flaw. Nor would they say they were being 'punished' as they chose the flaw. It was on them.


You keep harping on about roleplay, roleplay, roleplay.

Yeah... I know. *sighs greatly* Imagine that..... role play... in a ROLE PLAYING GAME!! Who'd have ever imagined it was about the role play, and not 500 tables of every minutia that could ever be dreamed up. It's not "Number calculator to describe orcs and humans and spirits and the matrix" it's a ROLE PLAYING GAME. lol

But my grievances have NOTHING to do with roleplay, and everything to do with MECHANICS - that is to say, with the toolset I have available to help me craft quality roleplay that me and my table enjoy. I want my tools to work. I want them to serve my needs. I want them to be robust and flexible and sensible and well made. And you keep telling me the tools aren't the problem - that I just need to forget the tools and focus on the roleplay. Well I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

~Umi


That's a problem with you. If you need a rule to cover EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD all the way down to how to handle blue hair, you're never going to be happy as the concept of such a thing is absurd and can never be done. It's silly to try and demand it. If you ARE a GM and you can't handle such things, you either need to grow as a GM and realize that MOST of the world is in your hands and does what you say it does, or.... get back on the other side of the table. If you can't handle the repercussions of blue hair with out charts and tables and dice.... that doesn't bode well for when your players get inventive on a run.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Changeling traits do give distinctive style, which has specific rules mechanics. There is also the prejudice that changelings are supposed to face, which should not be every single NPC, but should still be common enough. Blue hair is more of a disadvantage than things like prejudiced/biased/ghouls, or impaired Attribute/dump stat, or incompetence/aerospace pilot, or scorched.


It is presented as a possible option, but it is a stupid suggestion. Other than setting the overall guidelines (such as things which are disallowed or treated differently in that game), the GM has no business making choices for the player in character creation, unless the player chooses an option that gives the GM that ability (such as amnesia or mysterious implant).

It's to prevent people from sitting down with the book for an hour and using SURGE to just build the perfect 'Combat creature' with specially tailored 'flaws' or disadvantages, specificly chosen to NOT be suich for that specific character.

I.E. If you're a mutant with cool powers, your mutation is not under your control and there's some bad things that come along with it. How do we know? because the -rules- tell you so.

Personally I'd like to pick my own flaws. But then I'm one of the sorts that play out the flaws alot more than the benifits. lol Flaws define you. For Shadowrun and SURGE, you MUST take them. I'd prefer to take my own. There are few game masters that I'd trust not to give me a Tucan beek or something. lol.

I can totally see why some GMs would pass out the flaws to a SURGE character, to make sure they were difficulties.

[phlapjack77]

Pepsi Jedi, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm definitely not a min/maxer by any stretch. But in this case, I think (better) rules are warranted.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't fucking care. You're ignoring my entire point. I'm not talking about roleplaying or how to justify the quality. I'm talking about cold hard numbers and mechanics. And the mechanics here are plainly broken.

Unusual Hair gives 5 BP for free. That is not how negative qualities are supposed to work.

It doesn't impose any specific penalties of its own. And even if we allow that it imposes Distinctive Style, that's redundant because you already HAVE Distinctive Style if you're a changeling! It literally does NOTHING except give you build points. That is my complaint.

~Umi

You do not have to be a Changeling to take Metagenetic Qualities. ANY variant metatype can do so as well. *shrug*
Besides, if you do not think that having multiple distinctive qualitites does not make you STAND OUT MORE, then I really don't know what to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

do variant metatypes fall under advanced character options too?

[Mäx]

do variant metatypes fall under advanced character options too?

Ofcource they do.
But as always GM has the make the call on how distinctive they based on the current location, ie. Oni in japan does stand out nearly as much as one in texas.

[Lionhearted]

I think so Stahl...
Anyway the problem with qualities like extravagant eyes and unusual hair, is that they're cheap cop outs for people that wants the benefits of SURGE without being readily identifiable as Changelings (and thus likely as subject of prejudice)
Look at a Nartaki, very distinctly 'not human' bright colourful skin and multiple arms. Now look at the guy with blue hair and Violent eyes... Would you immediately think Changeling? You probably wouldn't... and that's exactly the problem, you can be Class III SURGE and show no tell tale signs of it, that's not roleplaying, that's weaseling out of your character choice for freebies.
A guy with Allergy to whatever isn't meant to stand out, a Class III is supposed to stand out like a luminous ten foot sore thumb.

[Umidori]

+1 Lionhearted

Now as for Pepsi. You are missing the point, again and again. And I'm going to prove it to you right now.

As bad as Incompetent:Parachuting would be, at least it would have a mechanical effect 1% of the time.

As pointed out, it has an effect. It doesn't have dice to roll. The effect is on you to play out. Not just throw dice. The effect is social and visual.

That isn't a mechanical effect. Why are you even bringing it up?

This is about MECHANICS. You are repeatedly changing the subject and getting off topic for some unknown reason. You keep going back to roleplay, but we're not talking about roleplay. We're talking about MECHANICS. Nothing else. Stop going off on abusive, tangential, judgemental rants, please.

This is about one thing, and one thing only - the interactions of mechanical effects. Positive and Negative Qualities have mechanical benefits, and they have mechanical detriments. Every single one of them. Except Unusual Hair. And that lack of consistancy, that apparant failing of the rules, that breaking of uniformity and cohesion and logical regularity, is the sole and entire breadth of the conversation. Full stop, end of story.

~Umi

[Umidori]

You do not have to be a Changeling to take Metagenetic Qualities. ANY variant metatype can do so as well. *shrug*
Besides, if you do not think that having multiple distinctive qualitites does not make you STAND OUT MORE, then I really don't know what to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except you don't have multiple Distinctive Styles. Unusual Hair does not impose an additional level of DS, any more than any of the other 5 BP qualities do. So you've got 1 Rank of DS from being a Changeling, and 0 additional Ranks from Unusual Hair.

Taking Unusual Hair does not, by any ruling I've found, make you more Distinctive, but it does give you 5 free BP.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except you don't have multiple Distinctive Styles. Unusual Hair does not impose an additional level of DS, any more than any of the other 5 BP qualities do. So you've got 1 Rank of DS from being a Changeling, and 0 additional Ranks from Unusual Hair.

Taking Unusual Hair does not, by any ruling I've found, make you more Distinctive, but it does give you 5 free BP.

~Umi

Perhaps, by any MECHANICAL ruling, but the fact that you have 3 different things that each qualify for Distinctive Style means that you stand out that much more. There are 3 traits that can be hit to identify you (rather than none). The guy with the Blue Hair (Facial, haed, arms chest, etc), with Neon Green Eyes, who creeps out the Neighborhood animals will almost certainly identify you, specifically, or at least a small enough subset to not make much of a difference. And that is the thing. It is an identifier that you cannot remove. *shrug*

[Umidori]

But is that worth 5 BP? Especially compared to the other 5 BP negative qualities which do exactly the same thing, and then some?

~Umi

[_Pax._]

What you're complaining about, Umidori, is called "granularity".

5BP is the value of "blue hair", because by and large, 5BP is the lowest value assigned to negative qualities.

Having blue (or neon green, or rainbow-dash-like multicolor, etc) hair is worth "more than 0 BP" ... the next stop on the dial is 5BP. So ... *shrug*

[Draco18s]

Having blue hair is worth "more than 0 BP" ... the next stop on the dial is 5BP. So ... *shrug*

But is it worth "more than" 0BP? That's his point. To him it's worth exactly 0BP.

Same as gender.*

*Side note: gender has more mechanical benefits and drawbacks than blue hair.

[Stahlseele]

it does?
where?

[Umidori]

If a quality is not worth the BP cost assigned to it, it shouldn't be a quality.

Now, if the system supported smaller values, like 1 or 2 BP? Maybe I wouldn't mind it. But it doesn't, so it's a moot point.

Particularly because the minimum value of such a quality is 5 BP, it either needs to be worthy of that 5 BP pricetag, or not exist at all.

~Umi

[Draco18s]

it does?
where?

It's one of those things that is unlisted, but which will come up.

For instance, you encounter a gay orc, willing to cut you a deal for those goods you wanted, if you do a little somethin-somethin.

If you're female, oops, no deal...

If you are male--blue hair or not--then deal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's one of those things that is unlisted, but which will come up.

For instance, you encounter a gay orc, willing to cut you a deal for those goods you wanted, if you do a little somethin-somethin.

If you're female, oops, no deal...

If you are male--blue hair or not--then deal.

How is that any different than if you have Identifiable physical characteristics? In this case, the Blue Hair is an identifiable trait that you cannot eliminate. Seems like it has a drawback to me. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

Seems like it has a drawback to me. *shrug*

What difference is there between dying your hair blue and having blue hair in terms of how people react to you?

If none, why is dying your hair blue a 0BP thing, but having naturally blue hair 5BP?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What difference is there between dying your hair blue and having blue hair in terms of how people react to you?

If none, why is dying your hair blue a 0BP thing, but having naturally blue hair 5BP?

Becasue you can re-dye your natural hair a different color. Not so with the NQ Blue Hair. Thought that was obvious. *shrug*

[Umidori]

If Unusual Hair said that it was Dye-Resistant, maybe. Sadly, it does not.

Or If it said that it imposed an additional layer of Distinctive Style, sure, I'd give you that in a heartbeat. If it said anything at all about anything of any sort having anything to do with substantial costs to the player or character, that'd be just dandy.

But all it says is that a character's hair "changes to an unusual color or texture, or grows from her body in unusual patterns or areas".

Oh, and it "is incompatible with other natural or artificial hair modifications". Which only really precludes taking Animal Pelage or Mood Hair. (Animal Pelage counts as Unusual Hair anyway, according to its entry.)

In fact, those are the only, actual mechanical effects of Unusual Hair - you cannot have both it and Animal Pelage, or it and Mood Hair. (Or cyberhair, but that's just fluff, so who cares?)

~Umi

[Mäx]

But is that worth 5 BP? Especially compared to the other 5 BP negative qualities which do exactly the same thing, and then some?

~Umi

Quite a few of the negative meta qualities, actually are completdly unoticable and thus aren't exactly something that can be used to track you down(by the trick RAW even when you have nothing but such qualities you still get distinctive style, but IMO thats dickish GM rules layering) and for example Impaired(Attribute) has such a weak sauce mechanic effect i would say it's much more free point then unnatural hair for example.

If Unusual Hair said that it was Dye-Resistant, maybe. Sadly, it does not.

If you make away with the effect you have to pay back to point you get, just like all other negative qualities.

[Umidori]

Quite a few? Which ones, please? Point them out. Anything that lacks a mechanical disadvantage, please show to me. I'll gladly disapprove of them as well.

Also, dye is not permanent. Would you have someone pay karma every time they dye their unusual hair?

You're not paying to have your hair be blue. You're paying for it to grow in blue naturally. If you get some form of bodysculpting done which makes your hair grow in as a normal color forever after, then you need to pay off the quality. But cutting or dying or concealing your hair doesn't remove the quality and does not incur any karma costs.

~Umi