SR5: Die Pools, February 1 blog article, and what it might mean Options

[Sengir]

Well, the Eye of the Hurricanes stories do suggest that something funky is happening regarding the Resonance and that's its' screwing with TMs...

Or it could just be a single TM with a bad blackout...or maybe it's a side effect of dealing with the special allies of the N'drangheta...

[Epicedion]

Ideally, I'd like to see things go back to hackers plugging their brains into things and Technomancers go back to being more techno and less mancer, a la Otaku.

A short-and-sweet use of the cyberdeck as hardware limitations on the brain/computer interface would be kind of cool -- instead of using a large host of programs they could simply rely on a quick set of hardware statistics to affect the various Matrix actions (ha ha, ACIFS). That is to say, searching a system for a file could be a Logic + Data Search test, limited by the deck's (for lack of a better term) Index rating. Breaking into a system could be a Logic + Hacking test, limited by Access.

In fact, in that instance I'd sort of like to see them slyly nod with a four-stat ACFS model, for Access, Control, File, and Security. Access: breaking in, system analysis, system-level modifications (spoofing, etc); Control: manipulation of attached devices; File: encryption/decryption, data searches; Security: cybercombat, detection avoidance, tracking. In this sort of model you could then simply provide a system a Security rating and any IC would have appropriate attribute/skill combinations (so an Attack IC could roll its Pilot + Cybercombat, limited by the system Security rating). A security decker would simply bring his own deck with its own ACFS type ratings to the party. Security rating for a system could establish the breaking-in difficulty, so a Security 4 system could simply have a threshold of 4 to hack in, which would make Security 6 systems a crapshoot even for your 18-dice Logic 6 + Hacking 12 superstars (though there would surely be some modifiers available to help the odds).

[Umidori]

Personally, the Eye of the Hurricane story made me think that maybe Technomancy is becoming a two-way street - that now machines are becoming able to manipulate them.

Sure, you can hack that fancy system with nothing more than your mind, but maybe your mind itself can now be hacked by others. Sort of a Ghost in The Shell mindhack kinda thing.

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Body snatching AI and mindhacks... Weren't we done with shedim?

[Bigity]

Quick, I need to hit the streets and find a rating 6 Ares Predator V!

[Stahlseele]

Post from Primetide from SRO

The cat is out of the proverbial bag. Everybody has comlinks. But hacking needs a deck!

[Demonseed Elite]

I like the Accuracy mechanic and the general idea behind the Attribute + Skill (12 point cap) limited by another stat. I want to hear more, but the idea is appealing.

Also, I love the return of cyberdecks. But I also need to hear more. Beyond the fluff concept of plugging into a deck, what are the new differences? I'm curious!

Ideally, I'd like to see things go back to hackers plugging their brains into things and Technomancers go back to being more techno and less mancer, a la Otaku.

Amen.

[Stahlseele]

Somebody probably figured out how dumb it is that everybody and their mom runs around with a comlink that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff . .
It's like everybody running around with different kinds of pistol after all . .
This way, otto normalo can run around with his AR capable smartphone, err, comlink, and the real professionals use something that will compute circles around these toys in full VR . .

[Draco18s]

You either just broke your NDA, or this remains to be seen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, because all I have to do is look at the current karma costs and extrapolate.

* Draco18s phases out of the conversation*

[All4BigGuns]

Posted the following on the other forum, but thought it might be a good idea to bring it over here.

All in all, attributes maintaining the same maximums they have now with the skills being expanded like they've already said they're doing is not a bad thing in my opinion. Attributes will end up giving less to any single given skill, but this is offset somewhat by the breadth they give (a generalist will NEVER be as good as a specialist).

Strictly by the math, a human will be able to advance either a single skill or attribute to the maximum in the same amount of karma/time using the advancement method I suggested* (again assuming attribute maximums remain the same), which is another point of being rather even on things. Granted, once you start throwing meta-humans in there, the attributes will take longer to reach maximum, but since their maximums are higher, they should cost more and take longer. However, in character creation, the 'penalties' (which are largely just reduced maximums) could be applied before points are spent, but the 'bonuses' should probably be applied afterward. That way the Karma Generation system could be made the baseline core creation method, and all of these complaints revolving around "karma efficiency" can be squashed.

* This 'suggested' would be spending New Rating x 4 to raise attributes and just New Rating to raise skills. It comes to 80 karma for a human to max out a natural attribute and 80 karma to max out a single skill with a specialty using the new cap mentioned in the blog-post.

[Nath]

Somebody probably figured out how dumb it is that everybody and their mom runs around with a comlink that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff . .
It's like everybody running around with different kinds of pistol after all . .

On the other, nowadays, everybody and their mom have a desktop or laptop computer at home that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff. If it's not already the case with smartphone, it's only because most people stick to the padded OS they were given.

[Sengir]

No, because all I have to do is look at the current karma costs and extrapolate.

In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.

[All4BigGuns]

In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.

Actually, it is legitimate. He's just using the costs available at the time since any knowledge of what they'll be in the future is lacking. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not legitimate.

[Draco18s]

* Draco18s phases back into the conversation*

In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.

No. The costs might not stay the same. But the design goal is to be "possible, but only through extended play."

We didn’t want to make it easy to get there, though—the Karma costs of getting that final level are very high, because we wanted it to be clear that getting a character to that level was a sign of real commitment and dedication.

I'm not saying "it will take 500 karma to have a skill of 12" but that "players will be spending karma on other things, and won't have a skill of 12 until 500 karma total." Sure, if you rush it, you'll have it at like 60-80 karma. But you also didn't do other things.

[Falconer]

On the decks things... no it's not all that much different.

In prior editions practically every runner had a 'personal secretary'. Which was nothing more than a smartphone! It'd make cell phone calls, texts, run simple programs to help you organize. But hacking required decks (which lets face it, didn't need keyboards... it could be a small box with a few plugs and would work just as well).

SR4 just got rid of the decks... a bad thing to do.



On the attributes and costs bit.

It will absolutely need addressed... so long as an attribute gives +1 dice to many different skills... plus gives other benefits as well on top of that. (example reaction helps piloting, AND is used in attribute only defense tests). At current karma costs attributes are far too cheap... the higher skill cap simply won't matter because most people won't make any use of it because attributes are more efficient uses of karma until maxed out generally. At current karma costs skills generally don't go past rank 1 + specialty for a while.

It makes no difference if skills can now go to 12... if it's so cost prohibitive that attributes are still the better deal to max out first. Most games rarely go past 50 or 100 karma. Let alone the 300-500 ones. Or even rarer 1000+.

Quite frankly I don't see this changing unless the way attributes and skills are augmented radically change. Skills have a limit in them based on 1.5X rank limitation. Attributes don't... so it's possible to go 1(6) agility with muscle toner and suprathyroid... then simply pay 10 karma to go to 2(7)... 3(8), 4(9).... saving tons of karma while still having a kickass stat. Unless attributes are similarly limited to 1.5x base value... that won't go away. Also skills don't have nearly the number of ways to augment them that are present for attributes... (improved adept power, and reflex recorders are pretty much it... and 1 point reflex records don't give much reason to go beyond rank 2 skill).

[All4BigGuns]

Really, the comm-link thing wasn't a "bad thing to do", as it just opened up hacking as a potential for more people. While yes, anyone could dabble a bit in hacking (enough to do a few simple things or get themselves into trouble) the dedicated Hacker was still better at it to a large enough degree--at least until the upper levels of karma when a mundane needed to start branching out into other areas, at which time, sure they could get to be as good as the Hacker, but that was a long time off.

[Umidori]

Attributes don't... so it's possible to go 1(6) agility with muscle toner and suprathyroid... then simply pay 10 karma to go to 2(7)... 3(8 ), 4(9).... saving tons of karma while still having a kickass stat.

This only works at chargen, where you're assumed to be buying the attribute first, then adding the 'ware.

In-game, the cost of increasing an attribute is based off of the total modified value, so while your natural value is only 1, the effects of the 'ware boost the cost of increasing it to the same as if you were increasing from 6 to 7 naturally.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

This only works at chargen, where you're assumed to be buying the attribute first, then adding the 'ware.

In-game, the cost of increasing an attribute is based off of the total modified value, so while your natural value is only 1, the effects of the 'ware boost the cost of increasing it to the same as if you were increasing from 6 to 7 naturally.

~Umi

Um, say what?

As I understand it, Cyber doesn't work that way - it certainly never did in prior editions.

If I have Agility 5(7), and I want to raise it to 6((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) ... I pay the cost in karma of 5-->6, not the cost of (7)-->((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) . Because the cyber could be removed.

[Umidori]

I might be misremembering, and I'm going to check my books right now, but it's definitely that way for the adept power equivalents.

Improved Physical Attribute
Cost:.75 per level

With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility, Body, Reaction, or Strength). Each level increases the attribute by one. If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (p. 269), the cost is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements. Increasing Reaction with this power also affects Initiative.

Checking now for the rules spelling out the cyber equivalent, although it should be the same, as you can lose both cyber and magic alike.

~Umi

[Umidori]

Well, I'm hitting a wall. My initial indexing has failed to turn up any ruling anywhere that actually expressly states how you're supposed to handle improving augmented attributes. The corebook only talks about improving natural attributes, and then the adept power modifies that with it's own special rule, but I can't find anything about how to handle boosts from 'ware.

*frustrations*

~Umi

[ChromeZephyr]

Apologies for bringing something up from a couple days ago, but I don't like leaving things directed at me unreplied to, just seems rude...

@Chromezephyr
Weren't they saying they wanted to de-empathize edge?
Also Kalashnikov's are notoriously durable and reliable, how that reflects in accuracy... Heck if I know

I didn't see the bit about making Edge less than it is now, I was simply spitballing.

As for the Kalashnikov's accuracy, that's the drawback for that legendary reliability. It's built to far less exacting specifications than the assault rifles made by Colt or HK, so it can survive being buried in mud for a week, as well as being cleaned (or not cleaned, more than likely) by a peasant conscript and still function. It's still capable of hitting targets at a good distance, but compared to the precisely machined parts and fit of the AR-15/M-16 or G36 it's definitely less accurate. It's not hard to find photos of the groups that a decent shooter firing both types of guns will make, and the difference is noticeable.

[Umidori]

And now my google-fu is turning up a lot of things that, while not definitely confirming anything, do seem to suggest that the accepted norm is to pay karma based on the base attribute, and that the adept power is just needlessly gimped for no apparant reason. Awesome?

One more thing to add to the SR5 wishlist, I guess... "Please, sir, I want some more."

~Umi

[Falconer]

The rules for cyber/bio enhancements are the costs to raise are based on the natural attribute.

Page 270... improving attributes...
"The cost of raising the NATURAL attribute rating is the new rating x5."
2 paragraphs later..
"Raising the natural attribute may raise the augmented attribute value up to the augmented attribute maximums."

p68... Attribute Ratings... "Care must be made to distinguish between natural, undmodified attribute ratings, and those augmented by cyberware, biowre, adept powers, and magic."

The rules clearly distinguish between augmented value and natural value of the attribute for purposes of improvement. And also for purposes of chargen... for example cerebral boosters don't get you freebie knowledge skills in chargen, only the natural attribute does.

Improved physical attribute adept power is an EXCEPTION to the rule. (and one of the reasons I don't like the power outside of flavor, and vastly prefer attribute boost instead). The reason it spells it out under the power is because it's a specific rule creating an exception to the default rules on page 269 or so.

[Umidori]

Yes, thank you, I picked up on that already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So yeah. Pure adepts without 'ware? Hilariously not worth it.

Give up a point of magic and 6 BP worth of nuyen for Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner at Rating 2, get +2 Strength and +2 Agility, and still have 0.2 Essence left over for something else. That's equal to anywhere from 3 to 6 power points (it used to be 4 to 8 points before errata!) worth of Improved Physical Attribute, depending on if you're going past your natural maximum. And you don't have to pay premium karma costs to improve those attributes later on.

Seriously, you guys. What the flaming fuck.

~Umi

[Falconer]

Yeah you ninja'd my post... started typing after and hit add reply only to see a bunch more posts.


But I disagree with you on those particular augmentations... while nice... they are very essence heavy for an adept to get all of them (especially up to rating 4 in both). Unless you're going down the biocompatibility/alpha grade path..

But that's one of the things about the setting. There are very few characters which can't do well with a point or two of ware.... the question is are you willing to do it or not? If you want to be an absolutely pure adept... then that's a price you pay.



But in this case. I still prefer the attribute boost powers. 0.25PP... roll the dice and I can easily add 1-3 to the attribute when I need it with just a simple action. Attribute boost also pointedly does not work with any augmentation except improved physical attribute.

Also as the game progresses and magic gets higher they get better and better, especially if you're a mystic adept with a power focus.


I believe people even give the increase reflexes power short shrift... yes 1.5... is a bit expensive but you get the attribute increase and the extra pass... 2.5 is easy to improve for the next step. But unlike someone with ware... you don't have to have the old one ripped out and buy the new higher grade to replace it. You simply add a little more magic.

Personally I think the way to help out adepts is to take that advanced metamagic which comes after adept centering a step farther to make it more usable... sorry forget it's name. The one which allows to supercharge abilities up to higher levels than you have them, but then you take drain equal to your magic or magic x2... forget which. I think it needs to have it's drain scaled down so instead of adding a ton of PP... you can add like 1 or 2 PP for a short burn... and lower drain.