[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Skills are Rating 1 to 12 . . again . . since when?

I think they meant "Looking at this idea (which was never used) again."

[Bull]

And here Bull thought he needed to hunker down in a bomb shelter ... ha!

I'm surprised myself. Though the night is young. But Dumpshock occasionally surprises me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Skills are Rating 1 to 12 . . again . . since when?

Essentially, since ... SR3, I believe. The effective limit based on attributes - the cap for skills was 1.5x attribute, yes? So 9s for unaugmented himan maximum, 12's if you got to 8 (not unreasonable) ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

@Chromezephyr
Weren't they saying they wanted to de-empathize edge?
Also Kalashnikov's are notoriously durable and reliable, how that reflects in accuracy... Heck if I know

[Stahlseele]

Ah . . no? O.o
The Skill-Limit of Natural X1.5 was introduced in SR4.
In SR3, there was NO skill-Limit at all . .
Skills just got progressively more expensive in terms of Karma in SR3, the further you got them above the attribute for the skill . .
So, skill half as high as Attribute, 1 Karma per Level. Skill up to Attribute, 2 Karma per level. Skill x1.5 as high as Attribute, 3 Karma per Level. skill 2x as high as Attribute, 4 Karma per Level.
Or something along those lines, been ages since i actually had to deal with costs of skill above attribute @.@

[_Pax._]

Ah, well, I haven't had an SR3 mainbook to check in, for ... six or eight years, minimum.

[Bull]

There wasn't a limit, though the core book didn't describe skill categories above 8 (8+ was World Class), and due to cost inflation it was incredibly rare to see anyone with a 12 or better (Barring those anomalous multi-thousand karma games out there). It was also a fairly common house rule that skills capped at 10 or 12.

Bull

[Stahlseele]

Well, seeing how people could start with Skill 6 and higher Attribute or with 5/7, skill 10 was very much a possibility . .
But it is a game of diminishing returns, and at skill 12 why would you ever need to go higher?

[Falconer]

The old shadowrun computer game used to limit skills to 12. (though there was some trick to get a 13 in one type of firearm IIRC... you'd raise the group to the max then do the old school specialization).

SR1 and 2 both didn't limit the skill.

But I'm glad to hear this... it sounds like it'll go a long way towards improving things... Answers a few of the bits we brought up in the thread on the SR4 forums about dice mechanics...


Some speculation & consequences I can see of this...

If the limits on skill modifiers don't change... this could mean they could go up to 12(18) for adepts... giving them a solid boost for the people who chronically complain they're underpowered. Or it could be improved some other way... it'll be interesting to see how...

I like the concept of accuracy... if it follows the same method as magic, then it would allow you to exceed it when you spend edge..

Characters will be far more competitive with spirits for skills. Spirits right now have unlimited skills... and this will help with this.

Armor and hardened armor increases will need to be seriously looked at... especially vehicles and spirits... on one hand you'll no longer to be able to blow through an armored car with a light pistol most likely. But if itnw isn't addressed this will be something to watch for trouble with.


A hope:
I hope they change the skill karma cost down to 1x new rank since ranks are now doubled... and then just by knowledge/language skills two ranks at a time (almost halving their costs). This and dropping the price of groups down should go a long way towards bringing attributes and skills into balance.

[_Pax._]

If the limits on skill modifiers don't change... this could mean they could go up to 12(18) for adepts... giving them a solid boost for the people who chronically complain they're underpowered.

That's actually a very good point. Will be interesting to see what the Official Version says, there.

[Draco18s]

Armor and hardened armor increases will need to be seriously looked at... especially vehicles and spirits... on one hand you'll no longer to be able to blow through an armored car with a light pistol most likely. But if itnw isn't addressed this will be something to watch for trouble with.

Rather than "modified damage rating" being ignored, making it "listed DV" being ignored* would go a long way to preventing holdouts from blowing up trucks as well. And make low-value hardened armor (*cough* drakes) actually have meaning.

Alternatively, hardened armor could be treated as "auto-hits" on damage reduction tests.**

*Spirit immunity to normal weapons possibly getting a tweak so that high force spirits don't become neigh invulnerable to everything short of a nuke.

**With spirit immunity being "force" instead of "twice force," which is a house rule used at some tables, IIRC.

[Falconer]

I wasn't trying to derail the thread... just raise some random thoughts for the powers that be.

Mostly in the mold of... if this is done... what are all the unintended consequences of it?

[All4BigGuns]

Rather than "modified damage rating" being ignored, making it "listed DV" being ignored* would go a long way to preventing holdouts from blowing up trucks as well. And make low-value hardened armor (*cough* drakes) actually have meaning.

Alternatively, hardened armor could be treated as "auto-hits" on damage reduction tests.**

*Spirit immunity to normal weapons possibly getting a tweak so that high force spirits don't become neigh invulnerable to everything short of a nuke.

**With spirit immunity being "force" instead of "twice force," which is a house rule used at some tables, IIRC.

With the Immunity to Normal Weapons, it should be left as is. A high Force spirit SHOULD be impossible for mundanes to deal with, and they should have to call in magical backup (or flee if they don't have access to any) should they encounter one.

[Umidori]

Damnit, Draco. Now I'm wondering what the Accuracy of a nuke is gonna be... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

Damnit, Draco. Now I'm wondering what the Accuracy of a nuke is gonna be... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

Infinity (assuming it works, which it may not since the mana stuff seems to make them unreliable).

[Draco18s]

With the Immunity to Normal Weapons, it should be left as is. A high Force spirit SHOULD be impossible for mundanes to deal with, and they should have to call in magical backup (or flee if they don't have access to any) should they encounter one.

While yes. No.

Yes, a high enough force spirit should require a magical response.

But.

Players should not be able to summon these at a whim.

[_Pax._]

Infinity (assuming it works, which it may not since the mana stuff seems to make them unreliable).

Accuracy of 1. Autonomous die pool of 1. Pray you don't glitch. ;D

[All4BigGuns]

By the time a mage (PC or otherwise) is powerful enough to summon a spirit of Force 10 or higher as easily as breathing*, they deserve to be able to do so.

* This means summoning the spirit with only Stun damage drain and taking no more than 1 or 2 points of that drain.

[Draco18s]

By the time a mage (PC or otherwise) is powerful enough to summon a spirit of Force 10 or higher as easily as breathing*, they deserve to be able to do so.

Oh. Sure. I meant more the Force 6 spirits, which under the current rules, pretty much are immune to non-magical damage, until you pull out the cheese that is stick'n'shock.

[All4BigGuns]

Oh. Sure. I meant more the Force 6 spirits, which under the current rules, pretty much are immune to non-magical damage, until you pull out the cheese that is stick'n'shock.

Well, there is one change I thought of that I'd like to see with ITNW, and that is for it to be true Immunity, as in if it isn't a Weapon Focus, spell or Adept's punch with Killing Hands, the spirit can not be harmed by it at all. Period. Full stop.

And, again, I'm saying this as someone who plays mundanes more than Awakened, and as such would not be able to affect spirits with my characters.

[Falconer]

This thread is about dice mechanical changes... not about the merits of anyone's particular views on how hardened should be. That's why I said i wasn't trying to hijack the thread...

Merely point out what may or may not be the law of unintended consequence.

[tasti man LH]

Hmm, lesee...

-Skill cap rais- MOTHER OF GAIA YES, PLEASE!!!!!! Yer darn skippy that skills should matter more when it comes to DPs! I'm all for this one.

-The Accuracy thing for gear is an interesting idea...but I'm hoping for a little bit more on in. Because otherwise, there's a lot that it could go wrong.

For one, I do think that the Skill of your weapon should factor heavily if you make or break. Since, y'know, a Pistol will typically have a much shorter range in comparison to a Sniper Rifle.

So if you've got a guy who's main thing is dual-wielding two Colt Manhunters and has trained years and years with the thing, versus Joe Schmo, who's never fired a slingshot in his life, much less a rifle, just picks up a shiny new Ares Alpha off the street, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if Joe Schmo has a much better chance to hit his target just because he has an overall better gun in comparison to the pistols our gunslinger has.

...of course, it could be that we're just missing a couple of bits of information and that Accuracy modifiers are a thing, but we'll see.

Putting a hard limit on rolls are fine, but idea still needs some fleshing out to do.

[_Pax._]

So if you've got a guy who's main thing is dual-wielding two Colt Manhunters and has trained years and years with the thing, versus Joe Schmo, who's never fired a slingshot in his life, much less a rifle, just picks up a shiny new Ares Alpha off the street, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if Joe Schmo has a much better chance to hit his target just because he has an overall better gun in comparison to the pistols our gunslinger has.

Let's presuppose an Accuracy of 4 for Heavy Pistols, and 6 for Shotguns.

So hypothetically, Gunslinger Bob has Agility 5, and Pistols 7, specialised in Manhunters for +2. That gives him a DP of 14. Now, since he knows what guns he's going to be wielding, they're both Smartlinked, for +2 accuracy - a 6 total. He can count up to 6 hits, out of that DP of 14. Even if he splits that, to 7 dice per gun ... and even if dual-wielding has a -2 penalty to accuracy (an excessively harsh setup IMO), he's still going to be getting 2.33 hits per gun, firing 4 shots per combat turn. Or 4.66, capped at 4, if he alternates between pistols and gets only 2 shots per combat turn.

Meanwhile, Joe Random picks up a shotgun; he's got Agility 4, and - hey, he's a big Cabela Hunting/FPS junky, so he actually has Longarms 2; his DP is 6. Not bad for someone who's never shot a gun outside a video game in his life. And, ";ucky" him, his gun is loaded with FL ammunition, with a wide-open choke, for +2 accuracy. But he still only has a DP of 6, so an 8 accuracy is pretty worthless for him: he's going to get 2 successes on average, and accuracy doesn't mean bupkis to him.

And in the end? Bob's putting either 4-hit shots into people twice a turn, OR, he's putting four 2-hit shots into people per turn. Meanwhile, Joe gets two 2-hit shots per turn.

Either Bob has more successes per shot, OR, he has twice as many shots. No matter how you look at it, Bob's got the clear advantage.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Hmm, lesee...

-Skill cap rais- MOTHER OF GAIA YES, PLEASE!!!!!! Yer darn skippy that skills should matter more when it comes to DPs! I'm all for this one.

-The Accuracy thing for gear is an interesting idea...but I'm hoping for a little bit more on in. Because otherwise, there's a lot that it could go wrong.

For one, I do think that the Skill of your weapon should factor heavily if you make or break. Since, y'know, a Pistol will typically have a much shorter range in comparison to a Sniper Rifle.

So if you've got a guy who's main thing is dual-wielding two Colt Manhunters and has trained years and years with the thing, versus Joe Schmo, who's never fired a slingshot in his life, much less a rifle, just picks up a shiny new Ares Alpha off the street, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if Joe Schmo has a much better chance to hit his target just because he has an overall better gun in comparison to the pistols our gunslinger has.

...of course, it could be that we're just missing a couple of bits of information and that Accuracy modifiers are a thing, but we'll see.

Putting a hard limit on rolls are fine, but idea still needs some fleshing out to do.

That "Joe Schmo" won't have the dice pool to get the hits necessary to fully utilize that Ares Alpha.

[_Pax._]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I just said. I even gave Joe Schmoe the benefit (IMO unearned) of 2 ranks of skill with the gun, and an above-average Agility to boot. He probably seriously pwns at Miracle Shooter ... ;D