[X] My Assistant

[Trillinon]

I like the idea of using Edge as a limit break, though I share the concern of it being yet another use for edge. I would very much like to see Edge reduced to just adding dice or breaking limits.

Though, to be honest, I kind of miss the idea of the Karma pool that Edge replaced. I wonder if the two can be reconciled.

[All4BigGuns]

I like the idea of using Edge as a limit break, though I share the concern of it being yet another use for edge. I would very much like to see Edge reduced to just adding dice or breaking limits.

Though, to be honest, I kind of miss the idea of the Karma pool that Edge replaced. I wonder if the two can be reconciled.

On the first, another use of Edge isn't bad except for one thing. It's already a finite resource and another use would just make it even more so. It really needs a cost reduction to reflect that it is so finite and gives little other benefit to the character without expending uses of it.

On the second, unnecessary except to the Grognards out there.

[Lionhearted]

I think what bothers people with edge is the exponential growth of it, you don't just get more uses for each point but you also get more benefit with each use.
Then again it's exceedingly expensive for the benefit you gain, I never find room to increase edge at chargen atleast...
Hm, what if edge was a derived attribute that ran off your karma?

[bannockburn]

On the first, another use of Edge isn't bad except for one thing. It's already a finite resource and another use would just make it even more so. It really needs a cost reduction to reflect that it is so finite and gives little other benefit to the character without expending uses of it.

Your argument is fallible. Giving Edge another use does not make it more finite. No one is forcing you to use the option, and as such you don't use more of it. WHEN you use it, you have more options. Thus it does not 'really need a cost reduction'.

[All4BigGuns]

I think what bothers people with edge is the exponential growth of it, you don't just get more uses for each point but you also get more benefit with each use.
Then again it's exceedingly expensive for the benefit you gain, I never find room to increase edge at chargen atleast...
Hm, what if edge was a derived attribute that ran off your karma?

To me, the cost of Edge to raise makes Edge 1 with Bad Luck better than raising it.

[phlapjack77]

Hm, what if edge was a derived attribute that ran off your karma?

I like this idea! Hearkens back to karma pools of older editions, and it makes a lot of sense that more experienced runners have better "luck".

+1

[All4BigGuns]

Your argument is fallible. Giving Edge another use does not make it more finite. No one is forcing you to use the option, and as such you don't use more of it. WHEN you use it, you have more options. Thus it does not 'really need a cost reduction'.

It does need a cost reduction even as it stands now simply because it is finite and affects pretty much nothing else. Also, as it stands, unless the GM is very generous with refreshing it (no less than every session--not run/adventure) it quickly becomes a complete and utter waste of points if actually used, and if it isn't used it's by nature a waste of points because it affects maybe two rolls in the entire game (that don't come up often at all at that).

[Draco18s]

It does need a cost reduction even as it stands now simply because it is finite and affects pretty much nothing else. Also, as it stands, unless the GM is very generous with refreshing it (no less than every session--not run/adventure) it quickly becomes a complete and utter waste of points if actually used, and if it isn't used it's by nature a waste of points because it affects maybe two rolls in the entire game (that don't come up often at all at that).

You're not using your Edge properly. I've used 3 points (of 4) in one session. Hell, one SCENE. It was well worth it.

[phlapjack77]

I think All4 does have a small point, though. The unknown, GM-decides nature of when Edge refreshes means that Edge could be worth a lot less in games where Edge refreshing happens infrequently. It's abitrary.

So along with other changes, it'd be nice to have actual rules on when and how Edge refreshes. That would allow a proper costing to be determined I think.

[All4BigGuns]

You're not using your Edge properly. I've used 3 points (of 4) in one session. Hell, one SCENE. It was well worth it.

But unless it refreshes fully at the beginning of each session at minimum, then once you're out, the points spent on it are wasted until the GM "decides to give another point". As such, 1 Edge and Bad Luck is a better bet than throwing your points down the drain into Edge.

[Draco18s]

But unless it refreshes fully at the beginning of each session at minimum, then once you're out, the points spent on it are wasted until the GM "decides to give another point".

It totally didn't refresh each session. If it refreshed each session I'd have spent all four.

[All4BigGuns]

And then there's that there are a lot of GMs out there that play their NPCs as being omniscient of the metagame factors, knowing when the players spend Edge and "counter-Edging". This too makes Edge worthless.

[Draco18s]

And then there's that there are a lot of GMs out there that play their NPCs as being omniscient of the metagame factors, knowing when the players spend Edge and "counter-Edging". This too makes Edge worthless.

THAT is not a mechanical issue with Edge.

[All4BigGuns]

THAT is not a mechanical issue with Edge.

But it is an issue with Edge, and one that only firm and definitive rules on refreshing it and use by NPCs can solve (personally, I prefer a "no NPC may possess Edge" and that's how I run it, but I realize not everyone does prefer that).

[Patrick Goodman]

On the second, unnecessary except to the Grognards out there.

I represent that remark.

[KarmaInferno]

But it is an issue with Edge, and one that only firm and definitive rules on refreshing it and use by NPCs can solve (personally, I prefer a "no NPC may possess Edge" and that's how I run it, but I realize not everyone does prefer that).

It's really a GM issue, not a rules issue.

If a GM is willing to do that he's likely pulling other meta-gaming stunts.



-k

[All4BigGuns]

It's really a GM issue, not a rules issue.

If a GM is willing to do that he's likely pulling other meta-gaming stunts.



-k

Possibly, but not necessarily. I mean, look at all the people on here who so vocally defend NPCs spending Edge (even when it's pretty obvious it's only being spent because the player did on their roll). Not to mention the people who so vocally advocate spirits always spending Edge to resist summoning and binding.

[phlapjack77]

Possibly, but not necessarily. I mean, look at all the people on here who so vocally defend NPCs spending Edge (even when it's pretty obvious it's only being spent because the player did on their roll). Not to mention the people who so vocally advocate spirits always spending Edge to resist summoning and binding.

This sounds made up. Can you point to "the people" who so vocally advocate these kinds of things? I've only seen one person who could be said to be vocally for spirits spending Edge, and that's when it's F4 or whatever (not naming names or anything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[All4BigGuns]

Hmm...calling someone a liar. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

[phlapjack77]

Thanks for validating my position with your response

[All4BigGuns]

Thanks for validating my position with your response (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for confirming your intention on the last post being a personal attack.

[_Pax._]

Hmm...calling someone a liar. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

Only if it's not true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Edge doesn't need a cost reduction. It needs some clear guidelines for when it refreshes.

For my part, I would refresh players' Edge as follows:

• Starting Off Right - at the beginning of a new shadowrun, your Edge pool refreshes completely.
• Participation - at the end of any Scene in which your character played a significant role (three or more lines of dialog/narrative, and/or two or more rolls of the dice): refresh 1 Edge.
• Entertainment - once per night, if you can prompt at least half of the other people at the table into sincere applause / cheers / consternation / horrow / etc, thus adding to the overall enjoyment and excitement of the session: refresh 1 Edge.
• The Gods take Pity - Every second time you glitch or critical glitch (on a roll with significance to the story): refresh 1 Edge, and accept our collective sympathy.
• GM Fiat - if, as GM, I have to over-ride a PC's dice - either the result, or even the opportunity to roll at all - in pursuit of that night's story: refresh 1 Edge up to 1 point higher than your normal maximum.

The last one mirrors the rules for gaining a Hero Point, in Mutants and Masterminds, for when the GM excercises their Fiat authority. For example, "Yes, Kal-El, I know you just managed to ace your resistance roll, and the Kryptonite shouldn't affect you, but I need you to be captured by Lex's hit squad, and weakening you with kryptonite is the only way that can happen. I'm afraid I have to over-rule that resistance roll. Sorry, man." ... in which event, there isn't even any need to ask or clarify: Superman's player gets a bonus Hero Point, on the spot. Poof.

[All4BigGuns]

Only if it's not true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Edge doesn't need a cost reduction. It needs some clear guidelines for when it refreshes.

For my part, I would refresh players' Edge as follows:

• Refresh all edge just before the start of a new Shadowrun; this makes sure you start out with all the resources available to you.
• Following the structure of Missions, with multiple Scenes per 'run: refresh 1 point of edge at the end of each session your character participated in "significantly) (more than one line of dialog, and/or rolling at least one die pool [skill, composure, etc]); this rewards participation and involvement.
• If you prompt at least half the table to sincerely applaud you, for any reason, refresh 1 edge; this rewards actions that enhance the enjoyment of everyone else at the table
• After suffering your second glitch or critical glitch of the session (cancelled with Edge or not); this is purely out of pity. Getting that refresh resets the counter - but please don't be so unlucky as to benefit from this more than once per session, you poor sodding bastard ...

Between Runs isn't often enough for the cost. For that rate it needs to be at least reduced to half of what other attributes cost (I know Void in L5R costs more, but raising it speeds character advancement in rank more quickly than other attributes--Edge does not do this.) Refreshing 1 point at the end of each Scene, that's fine, but "significant involvement" is too subjective to be an appropriate catalyst.

The third point, again, is too subjective to be appropriate.

[Epicedion]

I'd rather see them dump Edge and bury it with the rest of the Mechwarrior RPG where it belongs.

[_Pax._]

Try and re-read what I posted - especially my better-stated edit, but even the original you quoted.

For example, I defined "significant participation". Granted, my re-edit upped the bar slightly, but only because the topic got me thinking more about the idea in general.

And, I defined the third point pretty well. If, in a group of six (GM and five players), you can get thre people at the table to spontaneously applaud you, cheer you, or curse the very ground you walk on (etc) ... refresh a point.

And even if that remains "too" subjective for your tastes ... All4, the entire game is subjective. Every bit of it. Because the GM can over-rule whichever parts she wants, with full line-item veto power. Or add whatever she wants, for that matter. If the GM wants to declare that all trolls look like Sully from Monsters, Inc ...? In her game, they do. Period. End of story. Thank you for playing.