[X] My Assistant

[Epicedion]

Hmm... Let's see... Could it be maybe the crap-tastic GMs on the boards who do such things a forcibly implant characters with Sensitive System "just to make it 'come into play'", or those who think it's all right to have NPCs know when the PCs spend Edge to 'counter' the expenditure?

lol

[hermit]

Hmm... Let's see... Could it be maybe the crap-tastic GMs on the boards who do such things a forcibly implant characters with Sensitive System "just to make it 'come into play'", or those who think it's all right to have NPCs know when the PCs spend Edge to 'counter' the expenditure?

Does you bitching randomly about that like they're out to fuck over you all the time help? Also, heed your own advice about personal attacks, maybe, and people will not feel inclined to attack you personally either.

[All4BigGuns]

<<<Post Deleted>>>

[bannockburn]

You do a fine enough job in discrediting yourself. You don't need help, in that regard.

[crazyconscript]

*tries to sidetrack the conflict*

So, um, back to glitching and how it can come up in play:
Well, as a GM I don't think I would like critical glitches to be any more horrible than they already are. I have seen them happen, but since it is quite a low likelihood for any individual player it has never really detracted from the game and has often added welcome tension to the game (Like the Elf Face crit glitching on a damage resistance test vs. light pistol...he had no edge to spend so suddenly was suffering internal bleeding and in DIRE need of medical attention) as suddenly a completely new dynamic is added to the scenario at hand. Glitches I have found to not impact the game too much at the lower levels, and are not exactly sorely missed at higher dice pools. Frequency of normal glitches has never been an issue, and it seems more memorable when it does happen. They are rarely, if ever, game breakers but my players love looking forward to dealing with the consequences. I think the most fun glitch I have had happen when GM'ing is when a PC glitched firing his Shotgun loaded w/gel rounds....apparently he had accidentally loaded a Shock-Lock round earlier and fired that instead, nearly killing the guy they were trying to subdue.

Now, I know the disconnect between skill&situation is not expressly dealt with in game outside of dice pool modifiers, but an easy solution I have tended to employ is to reduce the number of 1's needed for a glitch if it seems relevant. So for example, trying to fire an automatic weapon that has had no maintenance for years and had just fallen into a puddle of mud you would essentially have the effect of Gremlins for the duration of that action. Yes, this is a GM fiat thing, but you just need to make it clear to players when such an instance of "Gremlins" is in effect or likely to take effect.

[cryptoknight]

This accuracy stat really has me excited too.

Something to make weapons of the same class different. Right now just about every weapon in a category does the same damage.

Provided that the MP5 H&K SMG is more accurate than the MAC-10 clone, but the MAC-10 clone has a bit more damage, we actually get a difference in SMGs.

Now if only they'd class each gun's ammo differently... pulling clips out of the MAC-10 and sticking them in the MP5 seems a bit odd to me.

[hermit]

I quite like that idea too. Weapons need more attributes to make different weapons sufficiently different anyway.

[Falconer]

No offense... but both a MAC-10 and MP5 are commonly chambered for 9mm parabellum...

So contrary to your view... yes you can pull rounds out of one and put them in the other. You just need to strip them out of one and put them in the others magazines.

Also if the MAC10 has higher damage but lower precision it makes it superior to the MP5 depending on critical details we haven't been privy to. (if precision merely caps damage.. or also limits the number of hits you need to dodge to avoid getting hit in the first place). If the former, then the mac is effectively say a 6-8 damage weapon... while the mp5 is a 4-8 damage weapon.


I'm all for the 'classification' of ammo types... it keeps things simple.. all weapons of the same type share the same type of ammo. Which eliminates a book keeping hassle barring truly unique weapons like the sakura.



Even in terms of the topic... I'm not against reducing chance of glitch as skill improves (you take better care of your equipment... you're more likely to noticed that a rope is going to need replaced before using it... etc.). But there's a huge difference between practically never as dice pools inflate past 10. Really the odds on 11 dice of producing a glitch is less than half of one percent (.00461). Yes less than 1 in 200 rolls produce a glitch for 11+ dice. Below 10 the odds are 1.5% and go up as you go lower.

They're too often for small pools and never seen for large pools. In fact, their rarity in large pools is probably one reason people so often fear them as it's one of the few times for the GM to create 'fun' (in the dwarf fortress definition of the word).

[hermit]

They're too often for small pools and never seen for large pools. In fact, their rarity in large pools is probably one reason people so often fear them as it's one of the few times for the GM to create 'fun' (in the dwarf fortress definition of the word).

As in SR4, many Mali take directly from your dice pool, you are down below 10 farily quickly. It'S not like everybody always rolls their maximum dice because no negative modifiers exist.

And since I have yet to see a list of possible effects that does not contain something close to instant death, I don't think Glitches are quite as benign as you and bannock like to make them out as.

[cryptoknight]

No offense... but both a MAC-10 and MP5 are commonly chambered for 9mm parabellum...

The MAC-10 also uses .45 ACP as well as 9mmP

I was referring to the .45 ACP variety obviously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC-10

Also if the MAC10 has higher damage but lower precision it makes it superior to the MP5 depending on critical details we haven't been privy to. (if precision merely caps damage.. or also limits the number of hits you need to dodge to avoid getting hit in the first place). If the former, then the mac is effectively say a 6-8 damage weapon... while the mp5 is a 4-8 damage weapon.

I would see accuracy as something akin to force, capping the net hits you can have. So you have a weapon that say starts with 6 damage and can add up to 5 hits to it... MAC-10

or a weapon that starts with 4 damage and can add up to 8 hits to it. MP5

It's that or precision affects the recoil modifier... which might work, if there weren't 600 ways to reduce full auto recoil from a 250mm man-fired howitzer to zero already.

[Epicedion]

I like to use calibers to describe ammunition just for fun, but that's something that I and most of my players know quite a bit about. For example I like to describe the Ruger Super Warhawk as firing a .454 Casull round. Heavy pistols are usually .45 or 10mm (approx .40), most light pistols and SMGs are 9mm unless they're based on some real-world weapon that's chambered for something else. AK-type weapons fire 7.62mm, sport rifles fire .308, American or European assault rifles fire 5.56mm, LMGs fire 5.56mm, MMGs 7.62mm, and heavier machine guns (mounted/vehicle/etc) fire .50.

[cryptoknight]

I like to use calibers to describe ammunition just for fun, but that's something that I and most of my players know quite a bit about. For example I like to describe the Ruger Super Warhawk as firing a .454 Casull round. Heavy pistols are usually .45 or 10mm (approx .40), most light pistols and SMGs are 9mm unless they're based on some real-world weapon that's chambered for something else. AK-type weapons fire 7.62mm, sport rifles fire .308, American or European assault rifles fire 5.56mm, LMGs fire 5.56mm, MMGs 7.62mm, and heavier machine guns (mounted/vehicle/etc) fire .50.

I've played Twilight 2000... and enjoyed tracking 30 different kinds of rounds... not just worrying about 7.62 but 7.62×39mm vs 7.62×51mm NATO

It's not that hard to do... and it could be an optional rule I suppose... so I can either buy say... 3 different Heavy pistols and put some .454 rounds into some of them, some 10mm rounds into others and some .44 rounds into a third... or just bout 600 rounds of heavy pistol

[bannockburn]

And since I have yet to see a list of possible effects that does not contain something close to instant death, I don't think Glitches are quite as benign as you and bannock like to make them out as.

"You need an additional simple action to unjam your weapon" => Firearms glitch, not instant death.
"Ammo explosion! You take your firearms base DV, roll body+impact armor" => Firearms critical glitch, not instant death.
Tell me how a data search critical glitch will kill your character instantly and I'll take that argument seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And you can always edge out. These things don't exist in a vacuum. You have a team to back you up and knit you back together, even if you are out of edge. Also, you can still _burn_ edge to survive such an assumed 'instant death' scenario.

Also, your dice luck just plain sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ChromeZephyr]

I like to use calibers to describe ammunition just for fun, but that's something that I and most of my players know quite a bit about. For example I like to describe the Ruger Super Warhawk as firing a .454 Casull round. Heavy pistols are usually .45 or 10mm (approx .40), most light pistols and SMGs are 9mm unless they're based on some real-world weapon that's chambered for something else. AK-type weapons fire 7.62mm, sport rifles fire .308, American or European assault rifles fire 5.56mm, LMGs fire 5.56mm, MMGs 7.62mm, and heavier machine guns (mounted/vehicle/etc) fire .50.

Apologies for the off topic comment, but .454 Casull? Jesus, man. I always envisioned .44 magnum at most, maybe a hot-loaded .357 magnum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree with most of the rest, though light pistols to me were more .380 or .22. Different strokes, yeah?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Apologies for the off topic comment, but .454 Casull? Jesus, man. I always envisioned .44 magnum at most, maybe a hot-loaded .357 magnum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree with most of the rest, though light pistols to me were more .380 or .22. Different strokes, yeah?

.454 Casull for the Win... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Or maybe even the Ruger .50 (Coure that is only a 5 Shot Cylinder). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

What a shame because I was also referring to the MP5 variant chambered in .45. (UMP45 IIRC... mp5 has been made in a bunch of chamberings... 10mm, 9mm, .40)

See the rounds are still interchangeable!

This means nothing as the rounds from a game perspective are the same!

All tracking of individual calibres and rounds is simply add a ton of book-keeping and waste game time. (is that 1911 chambered with a .45 barrel... a .40 barrel, or a 9mm barrel, or a .22 barrel...). Because guns come in many calibres... but now you gotta worry about the whole mess as well. Plus since all this stuff is supposed to be available 'caseless' for most applications as well... all those chamberings are obsolete.



Bannockburn:
Sorry but if you're firing Ex ammo... you better damn well be prepared to spend edge to downgrade a glitch.

That is one result which does make sense. If you're going to use highly unstable ammo to increase your weapon's DV and wipe out ballistics evidence (exploded bullets... good luck tracking back ballistics to the gun). You better be prepared if a misfeed or similar explodes in your face.

Ex ammo specifically only calls for this result on a glitch... any other type of ammo is far safer. It's simply part of the balancing factor of Ex(-ex)

[ChromeZephyr]

.454 Casull for the Win... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Or maybe even the Ruger .50 (Coure that is only a 5 Shot Cylinder). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ow. My wrists hurt just thinking about that. Though you're less likely to bounce the revolver off your face than those weirdos loading .600 or .700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Never understood the need for that, just use a shotgun with slugs.

[bannockburn]

Falconer: Yes, that is my point. I _would_ spend Edge in such a situation, and a critical glitch _can_ produce a potentially life threatening situation. But I hold that it is not 'close to instant death'. The character in question, even if out of edge, could still roll his armor to avoid the damage and even _if_ he then took crippling damage from his Barret, his team mates could _still_ scrape him up and patch him back together.

[hermit]

Let's just take the crit glitch from the boxed set? I doubt anyone would scrape that character up. Though the explody barret, barring the sniper being paired, also will be character death, since it's seconds (if any, IIRC damage flows into overflow) for help to arrive, and snipers being snipers usually are someplace else than the remaining group.

[bannockburn]

That's nitpicking on the assumed worst base damage code (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And if you're playing someone with no armor, and only 9 boxes of physical damage ... you can still burn your edge if you want that character to live (although, I don't really see why he would have deserved it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[hermit]

The reference penalty of a crit glitch in the boxed set disallows armour (and the AP of the barret comes to bear anyway, I think), so ...

[bannockburn]

So burn edge?

[hermit]

Yes. Which is quite a massive effect for a glitch. And you want that to happen once a session ... why exactly?

[bannockburn]

No. You make it out to be the worst thing ever. It isn't. Here's why:

There are 3 points at which you have a safety line against that worst case scenario of a lone sniper with a barret loading ex-ex blowing up. And I am already disregarding the fact that he will _most likely_ have a lot more than only 10 dice.
Also:

Explosive rounds will misfire whenever a critical glitch is rolled. When this occurs, the character firing the weapon is automatically struck by one “attack,” with a Damage Code equal to the normal damage done by the weapon. The character may make a damage resistance test as normal.

1.) Use edge to downgrade that crit glitch to a normal one.
2.) Your body+armor (that's what 'normal' means) -AP
3.) BURNING edge to _still_ survive.

This is NOT a no-win scenario, even in an assumed worst-case scenario.

I don't want that to happen once a session. It happens regularly to YOU once a session, which is weird coincidence, and quite frankly, it sucks to be you.
I haven't critglitched with my characters in a long time, nor did I see it in my regular sessions for a very long time either. So yeah, fluke of the diceluck.
Maybe you should start letting someone else shoot if your dicepool is 2.

[hermit]

I haven't critglitched with my characters in a long time

Unless I missed or misremember, something, it was when you burned Madeleine's edge at Gwenny's place two (three?) years ago. But you're more regular GM than player, so less chances to roll one.

Maybe you should start letting someone else shoot if your dicepool is 2.

Like your character who managed to get himself knocked out in that unnecessary fight he started? Just saying, you know.

And I see no "win" among your scenarios. At best, the sniper loses an expensive and hard to replace weapon. -6 AP means you are unlikely to have significantly more than 9 dice to resist (say, 6 body + 12 armour, would be 9 flat) - good luck with soaking (you can take edge, but unless you're Mr. Lucky or Madeleine, that'll not suffice). And burning edge is a win? Maybe you should have remembered that when you moped about that invincitroll. Your possibilities are different kinds of FUBAR. Loss of expensive gun, loss of expensive gun and (nearly) dead, dead and loss of edge (still a full track of physical damage, unless you have DocWagon and are in a place where they'll rescue you, good luck).