[X] My Assistant

[_Pax._]

I would see accuracy as something akin to force, capping the net hits you can have. So you have a weapon that say starts with 6 damage and can add up to 5 hits to it... MAC-10

.... and, Dodge comes into it too. If one gun is Accuracy 5, Damage 6P ... and the other is Accuracy 7, Damage 4P .... both theoretically cap out at 11 damage.

But the guy who throws 6 hits on his dodge roll takes nothing from the 5/7P gun, while still taking up to 5 damage from the 7/4P gun.

[_Pax._]

"You need an additional simple action to unjam your weapon" => Firearms glitch, not instant death.
"Ammo explosion! You take your firearms base DV, roll body+impact armor" => Firearms critical glitch, not instant death.
Tell me how a data search critical glitch will kill your character instantly and I'll take that argument seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"Your shot passes through a small spam-drone on the way to your target's brain-case, and people in the area are beginning to panic" => Firearms glitch with a sniper rifle. Also, not instant death. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And you can always edge out. These things don't exist in a vacuum. You have a team to back you up and knit you back together, even if you are out of edge. Also, you can still _burn_ edge to survive such an assumed 'instant death' scenario.

Yup. In my sniper scenario, "I'll use a point of Edge - so, the drone doesn't fall onto the walkway; it falls into a (deep) decorative koi pond on the bottom level. The only things panicking are some fish, and one little girl complaining about being splashed." (I'm in favor of players being able to add to the narrative like that, as long as it follows the diktat laid down by the dice, and doesn't conflict with anything the GM has already put into the narrative.)

[hermit]

So using edge means people forget a firey explosion of a drone they were watching? Also, how is retconning that explosion out not changing GM narrative.

[concentus]

So using edge means people forget a firey explosion of a drone they were watching?

What fiery explosion? It was only the light of Venus bounced off of a weather balloon and refracted through the exhaust from the troll restrooms.

[bannockburn]

Unless I missed or misremember, something, it was when you burned Madeleine's edge at Gwenny's place two (three?) years ago.

That was my point of pride. I burnt edge to get a critical success against the no-win scenario troll of doom (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Not to survive.

But you're more regular GM than player, so less chances to roll one.

More actually. Especially in combat, where I'd deem critical glitches to be most threatening.

Like your character who managed to get himself knocked out in that unnecessary fight he started? Just saying, you know.

Hu? The one referenced above? I honestly can't remember if that fight was unnecessary, but that was basically the GM saying "Oh you missed the one way where you could have avoided a fight, so here's a possessed troll adept in milspec grade armor with insta-heal and an invisible mage. Have fun."
Fun was had by ... none? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Also, the dicepool was closer to 20 than to two, and I didn't critglitch? Where are you going with this? Is this from misremembering at what opportunity I decided to burn edge?

And I see no "win" among your scenarios. At best, the sniper loses an expensive and hard to replace weapon. -6 AP means you are unlikely to have significantly more than 9 dice to resist (say, 6 body + 12 armour, would be 9 flat) - good luck with soaking (you can take edge, but unless you're Mr. Lucky or Madeleine, that'll not suffice). and burning edge is a win? Maybe you should have remembered that when you moped about that invincitroll.

Point was: Not "close to instant death". Which you claimed was about every crit glitch that might ever happen. We took an extremely unlikely example to the limit and got ...
So yeah. The 2 DP "sniper" rolled snake eyes and got punished for it by taking 6 boxes of damage on average (in your example, which is _not dead_), and lost a gun he had no business shooting with and a point of edge. Your point?
We also assumed that this person had no edge left and thus went into a dangerous situation in full knowledge of this. You see, why I'm raising a bunch of eyebrows here?

Incidentally, the character you're referencing would have less dice to soak with, but would also be much more likely to be actually close in. Aaaaand you were quite unhappy with the GM, too. So I don't really see where you're going with this.


So, I'm challenging you: Give me a believable scenario where 3 safety lines to avoid the worst possible outcome (a firearms with ex-ex or dodge crit glitch) isn't enough and the character in question doesn't have friends.

Your main argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be:
"I roll a glitch. I die."
This is simply not true, not even when modified to "I roll a critical glitch. I die."

[_Pax._]

So using edge means people forget a firey explosion of a drone they were watching?

When did I say "firey explosion" ...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Think: we're talking a small, low-budget "spam drone". That means, more likely than not, an LTA. It also means, no volatile fuels, so no "fiery" anything.

Most people wouldn't see the drone anyway - they'd only be looking at the holographic display, or the various AROs - a dozen, among scores of the things (a mall strikes me as a good place to presume it's a Spam Zone). So if the drone's holo display goes out, at the same time it's lift bag ruptures and fails catastrophically? The odds are that none of the wageslaves five meters below it even notice. Maybe, maybe, some of them note that one of the myriad of holograms winks out.

And all that? is without spending Edge. The glitch isn't really "you murdered an innocent spam-drone" (because honestly, who gives a frag); the glitch is "... and it's mangled plastic corpse hits the pavement down amidst the crowd, scattering parts and sparks everywhere". It's that second bit, you're spending the Edge to undo.

[Nath]

Tell me how a data search critical glitch will kill your character instantly and I'll take that argument seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

" Your Browse program has found a document that matched all of your search criteria, and you immediately access it. Happens you somehow found a bad scan of the Necronomicon. Since you're in Hot Mode, the sanity loss is replaced by physical damage to the brain. "

[hermit]

When did I say "firey explosion" ...?

Admittedly, I expected the drone to be an LTA.

Think: we're talking a small, low-budget "spam drone". That means, more likely than not, an LTA. It also means, no volatile fuels, so no "fiery" anything.

What.

"... and it's mangled plastic corpse hits the pavement down amidst the crowd, scattering parts and sparks everywhere"

So it only explodes/electrosplodes on impact then. Why doesn't it explode on contact with the Koi pond, frying all the fish and two children touching them despite a no fish touch policy with electrical shocks?

Point was: Not "close to instant death". Which you claimed was about every crit glitch that might ever happen.

... in combat. That crit glitches in data search rarely are instant death is conceivable (however, they'll most liekly ruin your rep and run).

Hu? The one referenced above? I honestly can't remember if that fight was unnecessary, but that was basically the GM saying "Oh you missed the one way where you could have avoided a fight, so here's a possessed troll adept in milspec grade armor with insta-heal and an invisible mage. Have fun."
Fun was had by ... none?

Snow and Perry decide to talk to bikers. Snow decides to randomly attack bikers. That's what I'm referring to, not InvinciTroll.

So yeah. The 2 DP "sniper" rolled snake eyes and got punished for it by taking 6 boxes of damage on average (in your example, which is _not dead_), and lost a gun he had no business shooting with and a point of edge. Your point?

How does an unconscious character holed up whereever get out of whereever by themselves? I'm assuming the sniper was somehow vital to the group's plan before he exploded because glitches are fun. the sniper'll fill up all overflow and die. That's that.

Incidentally, the character you're referencing would have less dice to soak with, but would also be much more likely to be actually close in. Aaaaand you were quite unhappy with the GM, too. So I don't really see where you're going with this.

Okay, I should have stated much clearer that I refer to two separate things; on one hand, InvinciTroll and the shadowrailroad of doom; on the other, Perry and Snow try to find girls in oil cans.

So, I'm challenging you: Give me a believable scenario where 3 safety lines to avoid the worst possible outcome (a firearms with ex-ex or dodge crit glitch) isn't enough and the character in question doesn't have friends.

Sniper has no edge left to normal-glitch the crit while providing covering fire for his group breaking out of Standard Corp Facility #31, chased by guards, so Sniper explodes, taking 9P damage with -6 AP, for a total of, let's say 13 soak dice. He has some previous damage because he fought off a patrol before, so even soaking 2 damage puts him over the edge (the run's not been going that well, we all know those). He now lies there, a mile outside the compound, and slowly bleeds to death instad of insta killed, having spent Edge not to immediately die. Unfortunatly, without the barret, his group has little to fight the guards effectively with, and are captured, one badly shot up. End of Sniper, nobody'll come for him in time.

And you don't need DP2 to crit glitch. You can do that well enough with a larger pool.

Your main argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be:
"I roll a glitch. I die."

Well, or 'I am unable to do anything meaningful for the rest of the session (fun!)", or "I'm unble to use the character for several ingame months due to extensive recuperation necessary (fun!)" or "I can build a new character because botching my SIN test got the character into federal custody for years" ... yes, I think glitches rarely are fun. The best you can hope is to lose an attack/an avenue of research/equipment.

We also assumed that this person had no edge left and thus went into a dangerous situation in full knowledge of this. You see, why I'm raising a bunch of eyebrows here?

Funny, I had that situation once when your character randomly attacked bikers because ... I don't know why really. Because Snow's taken his name a bit too serious? You don't always get to choose your battles.

[bannockburn]

" Your Browse program has found a document that matched all of your search criteria, and you immediately access it. Happens you somehow found a bad scan of the Necronomicon. Since you're in Hot Mode, the sanity loss is replaced by physical damage to the brain. "

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I will SO use that, if it ever happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

Admittedly, I expected the drone to be an LTA.


What.

... that's the Hindenburg, which used Hydrogen as it's lifting gas - and the sizing on the cloth used a mixture of aluminum and iron powders (in a lacquer base, IIRC). Both of which ar ingredients in explosives, and which resulted in the skin of the craft rapidly combusting once a sufficient heat source was applied for ignition.

Whereas modern LTA craft use helium, which is not at all flammable. They also use nonflammable skins for their lift-bag, or else, treat the skin material with a flame-retardant chemical.

Which is to say: LTA craft do not burst into flames like the Hindenburg did.

So it only explodes/electrosplodes on impact then. Why doesn't it explode on contact with the Koi pond, frying all the fish and two children touching them despite a no fish touch policy with electrical shocks?

Do people hit pavement from 10m up, the same way they hit water from 10m up? No ... and perhaps you should ponder why?

[hermit]

Do people hit pavement from 10m up, the same way they hit water from 10m up? No ... and perhaps you should ponder why?

So nobody noticed a Helium LTA (which, thanks to the lower lift of Helium, is arguably more than a few meters in diameter) flying at 10 m overhead and then crashing?

If you want a small LTA, you use hydrogen and damn the explosiveness. You don't need to coat the LTA in additional explosives for explosions then either.

[_Pax._]

So nobody noticed a Helium LTA (which, thanks to the lower lift of Helium, is arguably more than a few meters in diameter) flying at 10 m overhead and then crashing?

If you want a small LTA, you use hydrogen and damn the explosiveness. You don't need to coat the LTA in additional explosives for explosions then either.

Nope, that's not how SR does it.

They use Helium lift, and shape them as lifting bodies.

[Umidori]

Even if it was filled with hydrogen, you need a source of ignition. Simply shooting the drone is not likely to provide one.

~Umi

[hermit]

The heat from a bullet would be more than enough. oxygen and hydrogen is very explosive. you'd likely get a sharp flame first, then an explosion depending on the lift body's hull.

Nope, that's not how SR does it.

They use Helium lift, and shape them as lifting bodies.

While you're at it, check a condor drone's dimensions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, if you don't terribly mind, a source on the fact they use only Helium.

[phlapjack77]

Arsenal, p139
"Lighter Than Air (All):The vehicle is mounted on a zeppelin or blimp frame, so that it can now loiter over an area for days. The gas bag is filled with non-flammable gas, and is compartmentalized so that no single puncture will deflate the whole bag. "

I only had this on hand because I had just looked it up myself...

[_Pax._]

The heat from a bullet would be more than enough. oxygen and hydrogen is very explosive. you'd likely get a sharp flame first, then an explosion depending on the lift body's hull.

No, it wouldn't. Not even a Tracer (which is coated with an incendiary substance) would do it. Won't light a gas tank on fire, either. The heat just isn't applied to the "fuel" long enough for ignition to occur.

While you're at it, check a condor drone's dimensions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Can't just now; still have to pull the old HDD out of the bricked computer, and try to recover my PDFs that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

But I'm certain it's not "several meters" across, in any direction. Because I'm pretty sure it's a MEDIUM drone, not a Large (or bigger).

[Patrick Goodman]

" Your Browse program has found a document that matched all of your search criteria, and you immediately access it. Happens you somehow found a bad scan of the Necronomicon. Since you're in Hot Mode, the sanity loss is replaced by physical damage to the brain. "

This is a thing of beauty.

[hermit]

But I'm certain it's not "several meters" across, in any direction. Because I'm pretty sure it's a MEDIUM drone, not a Large (or bigger).

The MQ-1 Predator is a medium drone. And the Condor is listed as large (This Old drone, p. 11). The somewhat comparable Renraku Stormcloud has no type listing, though, given both are listed as "mini-blimp" in the fluff, it is conceivable the Stormcloud qualifies as a large drone, too.

[Umidori]

Really, it all depends on the weight. With 2070's high tech materials, it could be rather easy to have a very light payload, which is what determines balloon volume.

~Umi

[Mikado]

So nobody noticed a Helium LTA (which, thanks to the lower lift of Helium, is arguably more than a few meters in diameter) flying at 10 m overhead and then crashing?

If you want a small LTA, you use hydrogen and damn the explosiveness. You don't need to coat the LTA in additional explosives for explosions then either.

You do realize that even though Helium is about twice as dense as Hydrogen it is only about 8% less buoyant and since LTA's are based on buoyancy there would be little difference in size.

[_Pax._]

The MQ-1 Predator is a medium drone. And the Condor is listed as large (This Old drone, p. 11). The somewhat comparable Renraku Stormcloud has no type listing, though, given both are listed as "mini-blimp" in the fluff, it is conceivable the Stormcloud qualifies as a large drone, too.

The Stormcloud is a medium drone, and is a direct successor to the Condor series (in that it fills the same niche/role, and is an LTA craft).

Also: take a Lockheed Kestrel. Add a Holo-projector and the Lighter-than-Air modification. Poof, you have a small LTA drone, costing only 2,900¥ (including projector).

Or better, an MCT Fly-spy with the same mod and gear, and you've got a minidrone sized LTA, for only 2600¥ (again, including the projector).

Add Suncell, and both gain functionally-indefinite operating times (20x normal, at least 40 and as many as 120 hours on a single charge IIRC), costing 3900¥ and 3100¥ respectively. Eminently suited, IMO, to the task of being "roaming holographic billboards" ...

[sk8bcn]

I've had to wonder about people saying their characters are so good, a glitch / botch shouldn't come into it. I mean, I've seem Olympic-level divers crack their heads on diving boards, Olympic-level runners suddenly blow out their Achilles's tendon, and a mixed martial artist shatter his shin blocking the kick of another mixed martial artist during a fight. To me, those are critical glitches.

I'm no pro, but I play basketball and I had once an achille rupture. 1 in nigh 15 years, with around 5-6h a week playing. It's pretty uncommon.

Anyway, the only point is about the occuring rate.

For me, anything over 2-3% is too high.

And I rather have a glitch/fumble beeing included in the roll mechanic instead of extra dices.

[Tashiro]

I'm no pro, but I play basketball and I had once an achille rupture. 1 in nigh 15 years, with around 5-6h a week playing. It's pretty uncommon.

Anyway, the only point is about the occuring rate.

For me, anything over 2-3% is too high.

And I rather have a glitch/fumble beeing included in the roll mechanic instead of extra dices.

True, that kind of injury is uncommon, but if you broaden the range, and narrow the focus, let's look at basketball, as an example. A glitch could be:
You pass to the opposing team.
You shatter the backboard.
You crash into another player, removing you (if opposing team) / them (if same team) from the game.
You slam the mascot.
The ref calls you on a penalty you didn't cause.
The ref calls you on a penalty you did cause, but tried to hide.
You try a fancy move to sink the ball, and blow it badly.

Now, mind, basketball I could see as an extended test, where the team pools their dice vs the other team, and the first person to the goal # of hits wins. So then you need to figure out what's the odds of anyone on a team having one of these errors, and calling that a glitch.

Hell, I watch MMA all the time, and it's surprising how many people slip on the mat when trying to throw a kick, how many people break a hand or foot landing a blow, and how many people completely screw up a technique and get totally dominated. I'd call a number of those glitches, and decide they happen more often than one might hope for.

[_Pax._]

I'm no pro, but I play basketball and I had once an achille rupture. 1 in nigh 15 years, with around 5-6h a week playing. It's pretty uncommon.

And that's the only time anything unexpected, unplanned-for, and non-positive ever happened to you while playing basketball, for fifteen years ...?

Shenanigans.

Remember, "glitch" != "failure". Nor are all glitches critical glitches (which is what I would say a ruptured tendon would nicely represent).

[sk8bcn]

Well somewhat, failing a shot, a pass or several of those things are just failed actions to me.


"Hell, I watch MMA all the time, and it's surprising how many people slip on the mat when trying to throw a kick, how many people break a hand or foot landing a blow, and how many people completely screw up a technique and get totally dominated. I'd call a number of those glitches, and decide they happen more often than one might hope for."

Even those, most of them are just one beating the other no?

"And that's the only time anything unexpected, unplanned-for, and non-positive ever happened to you while playing basketball, for fifteen years ...?"

Of course not. Had once a drunk referee, a fight into the public and so on.

I'm not arguing about the existence of glitches, mind you, just that any system going over the 2-3% likeliness rate is too high at my taste.

Most of the times, when I GM, I decide if there could be a complication or not. I make a roll (with no rules backing it) to make it seem fair. Ofc it's not, it's what you (english speakers) seem to call "GM fiat". But that "GM Fiat" is illusionnary anyway. 80% of the game is decided by the GM anyway. It's up to me (the GM) to writte the scenario anyway or to adapt the written scenario I play.