[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Qualities are far from equal already - I don't know if I would want to add more inequity to the mix by making some easier to get rid of. I mean, yeah, there are going to be some options that are flat out better than the others in a wide-open point build system like Shadowrun's - heck, look at the controversy over the cost of playing an oni metatype. But this is taking things that should be the same and giving them different underlying mechanics, for what seems to be arbitrary reasons. Of course, the GM is free to fiddle with things like that if encouraging or discouraging certain qualities is the goal (I still think just tweaking the point values would be better, even for that), but it is essentially cutting down on meaningful player choices.

I so LOVE my Oni Ninja... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

In fact, you know what? Thinking about In Debt, I've decided that in the future, the PC w=ill not be allowed to even begin paying their principle down, not by one single nuyen, until they've paid enough Karma to reduce the BP value of the NQ.

Otherwise, their creditor refuses to accept extra money, or "loses" it somewhere in red tape, or "forgets" to apply it to the principle, whatever suits the story best.

[Medicineman]

My Char NOX (Ork Rigger) has indebt (10.000 ¥ from his Fixer Eve Donovan)
he pays it back in 10 Payments of 2000(no Time Limit) and with every Payment He's paying back I also pay 2 Karmapoints.
Until he has paid every rate he's inclined to do Runs for her even though they're kinda dangerous Ones
Thats a Deal I made with my former GM.I don't have to worry about interest rates and growing debt and He's got a Hook to get my Char into his Runs

with an agreed upon Dance
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My Char NOX (Ork Rigger) has indebt (10.000 ¥ from his Fixer Eve Donovan)
he pays it back in 10 Payments of 2000(no Time Limit) and with every Payment I also Pay 2 Karmapoints.
Until he has paid every rate he's inclined to do Runs for hereven though they're kinda Dangerous ones
Thats a Deal I made with my former GM.I don'T have to worry about interest Rates and Growing debt and He's got a Hook to get my Char in his Runs

with an agreed upon Dance
Medicineman

Which is not a bad way to go.
We tend to go that route, but we do keep the timeframe.

[FuelDrop]

Sometimes that works, and sometimes it does not. The last mob war we were involved in (at our table) included multiple factions, becuase some of the PC's figured that it was good to piss in EVERYBODY's wheaties. Once the commonalities were identified, well, lets just say that the Syndicate (Multiple Families; 3 if I remember correctly), Triad and Yakuza dedicated themselves to eradicating the PC's instead of going after each other. It was quite brutal.

You had Archangel on your team?!?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You had Archangel on your team?!?

Well, a couple of characters (and Players) decided that The Underworld organizations could not treat them that way (poorly. because they were pissing in the organization's wheaties) because they thought that they were the top of the heap, as far as the Shadows went. They really started to get the picture when the Assassin just disappeared, with no forwarding address/contact information. He literally hung them out to dry, since he was the most deadly one in the group, followed by the insane Merc Troll, who separated from the group as well. In the end they had to eat some crow and make nice with everyone (and some various other things that were going on) or they were going to be eliminated. Shadowrunners cannot compete with organizations. They can hurt them, to be sure, but they WILL lose in the end.

[toturi]

Well, a couple of characters (and Players) decided that The Underworld organizations could not treat them that way (poorly. because they were pissing in the organization's wheaties) because they thought that they were the top of the heap, as far as the Shadows went. They really started to get the picture when the Assassin just disappeared, with no forwarding address/contact information. He literally hung them out to dry, since he was the most deadly one in the group, followed by the insane Merc Troll, who separated from the group as well. In the end they had to eat some crow and make nice with everyone (and some various other things that were going on) or they were going to be eliminated. Shadowrunners cannot compete with organizations. They can hurt them, to be sure, but they WILL lose in the end.

It really depends. It largely depends on the attitude of the GM and his views on whether shadowrunners can or cannot compete with such organisations.

[_Pax._]

Which is to say, "it really depends on how sane the GM is, in terms of whether or not the believe four or six guys can take down world-spanning multi-trillion-nuyen organisations just because they have secret 'I'm a player character, Bitch!' tattoos."

[toturi]

Which is to say, "it really depends on how sane the GM is, in terms of whether or not the believe four or six guys can take down world-spanning multi-trillion-nuyen organisations just because they have secret 'I'm a player character, Bitch!' tattoos."

No. It is to say that if the player characters have such leet skills like Fastjack, have initiation levels approaching Caimbeul's, wealthy enough to be on the A-list of the Grand Tour, then as a GM, I will not say that they cannot take down such world-spanning multi-trillion-nuyen organisations just because they have secret 'I'm a player character, Bitch!' tattoos."

Unlike some GMs, I will not dismiss the possibility out of hand. If you as a GM want to close your mind to such a possibility, then it is your perogative as a GM. But I am open to reasonable approaches to the issue and I am of the opinion that as the characters increase in their power level, the probabilities of success at any endeavour increases.

[Glyph]

I believe that a syndicate with leverage over a violent career criminal would typically exert that leverage in subtle and incremental ways, rather than making serious threats against the runner and literally backing him into a corner.

If it does come down to a war of attrition, syndicates will usually win, just because they have more people and resources. But syndicates are composed of individuals. Sometimes you can deal with an adversary within an organization without declaring a scorched earth war against the entire organization.

[_Pax._]

No. It is to say that if the player characters have such leet skills like Fastjack, have initiation levels approaching Caimbeul's, wealthy enough to be on the A-list of the Grand Tour, then as a GM, I will not say that they cannot take down such world-spanning multi-trillion-nuyen organisations just because they have secret 'I'm a player character, Bitch!' tattoos."

So you think being a Bright Light on Jackpoint / Shadowland, makes yu immortal? Unkillable? Untouchable?

...

Go ask Hachetman how that's working out for him.

[toturi]

So you think being a Bright Light on Jackpoint / Shadowland, makes yu immortal? Unkillable? Untouchable?

...

Go ask Hachetman how that's working out for him.

So you think that being a syndicate or a corp makes you immortal? Indestructible? Untouchable?
...
Shadowrun history is littered with as many failed corps and dead syndicates as dead runners, go ask them how that's working out for them.

[_Pax._]

So you think that being a syndicate or a corp makes you immortal? Indestructible? Untouchable?

No, but it definitely means you have more "hitpoints", cash, karma, and expensive toys than any one, or even ten, shadowrunners.

and that's just this week's petty cash fund.

Shadowrun history is littered with as many failed corps and dead syndicates as dead runners, go ask them how that's working out for them.

How many of them were killed solely by a single small group of runners?

[toturi]

No, but it definitely means you have more "hitpoints", cash, karma, and expensive toys than any one, or even ten, shadowrunners.

and that's just this week's petty cash fund.


How many of them were killed solely by a single small group of runners?

No. I disagree what it "definitely" means, it probably means that it has more resources but it is not definite. For what it is worth, to me, Damien Knight, Richard Villiers and Mile Lanier are no more than very successful NPC runners.

I don't know. The very best runs are those you never know about.

[_Pax._]

No. I disagree what it "definitely" means, it probably means that it has more resources but it is not definite.

Who do you think has more money? A PC Shadowrunner ... or the entire Seattle Yakuza ...?

Now, who do you think owns more guns? More grenades? More shoulder-launched missiles?

Who has more warm bodies to wield them?

Hint: it ain't the shadowrunners.

[Medicineman]

some say Dragons can't be killed, some say Syndicates can't be messed with.
They're wrong ! Dragons CAN be killed and Syndicates CAN be toppled.
Its nothing any of my Chars would ever do (I'm not Insane )
but with the right Idea(s) and the right Resources& Actions it might be possible !
As a GM You should give Your players a fair chance to try it and not bar it right from the Start
be fair, be objektive and let the players dig their own grave ,but maybe they succeed ?(and that is where the epic Stories come from)

with an epic Dance
Medicineman

[Shortstraw]

Who do you think has more money? A PC Shadowrunner ... or the entire Seattle Yakuza ...?

Now, who do you think owns more guns? More grenades? More shoulder-launched missiles?

Who has more warm bodies to wield them?

Hint: it ain't the shadowrunners.

You forgot who has more enemies/competitors to stab them in the back the moment they are distracted.

Hint: it ain't the shadowrunners.

[Medicineman]

Who is an Organisation who's Bosses can die just as easily

Hint: it ain't the shadowrunners.
If the Runners find out the whereabout of the Syndicate Leaders and strike out very fast, very efficiently
(like in "Gone in 60 Seconds "with Kills instead of GTA) they have a decent Chance of "winning"

with a decent Dance
Medicineman

[toturi]

Who do you think has more money? A PC Shadowrunner ... or the entire Seattle Yakuza ...?

Now, who do you think owns more guns? More grenades? More shoulder-launched missiles?

Who has more warm bodies to wield them?

Hint: it ain't the shadowrunners.

Probably the Seattle Yakuza. But I won't discount the possibility that a PC shadowrunner having more money than the entire Seattle Yakuza. (One of the possible "rewards" at the end of SOTF was Lowfyr's counteroffer, guess who has more money than the several times the Seattle Yakuza? Hint: Not the Seattle Yakuza)

The correct answer to your questions is quite possibly the shadowrunners. But hey, you can keep your mind closed to the possibility.

[Darksong]

we've had organized crime conflicts in our games before, and I usually run them where as long as they can keep things below the "city" level the runners have a good chance of surviving.

Once they get the attention of the entire "Seattle" organization, they had better have some savvy political moves to go along with their physical ones if they want to survive (ie, they might be able to help bring about a change in power structure but that's only helpful if they have an ally to fill the vacuum)

If they happen to get the attention of the worldwide organization it is time to change your face, prints, and DNA and find a deep, dark hole to climb into for a few years.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I believe that a syndicate with leverage over a violent career criminal would typically exert that leverage in subtle and incremental ways, rather than making serious threats against the runner and literally backing him into a corner.

If it does come down to a war of attrition, syndicates will usually win, just because they have more people and resources. But syndicates are composed of individuals. Sometimes you can deal with an adversary within an organization without declaring a scorched earth war against the entire organization.

This is true, yes. In our case, we started that way... unfortunately, I am sure that several of the Characters DID have those secret tattoos, and becasue of it they expanded their personal vendetta to an all out war (there was a LOT of character EGO involved, go figure... "They can't do that to ME"). It was entertaining, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

That approach is not fair. Fair is not relative to the player. Fair is relative to the game. The only thing that is fair is to follow the rules that are listed.

Stop. Fair is, in fact, relative to the player. I'm not going to make someone pay Karma to remove an NQ which they have gone to extraordinary in-game lengths to remove - such as removing NQ Enemy by finding the guy who's hounding you, interrogating him for information on everyone who would want to avenge him if he suddenly went missing and on his insurance policies, and then pre-emptively killing them and disarming his "in case I die" bombs before executing him, and making absolutely sure the HoG couldn't apply by (for instance) removing and incinerating his head.

As observed, that approach is not fair.

If I were ever a player at your table, I would [b]always opt for "In Debt", and never opt for Enemy. Even for the exact same BP value. Because In Debt will be easier to remove, than Enemy; I'll be able to remove In Debt for zero Karma ... whereas, Enemy? I guarantee you, it'll cost cash AND Karma to permanently deal with an Enemy.

Then so be it. I'd rather not abrogate all forms of common sense by trying to suggest that someone is going to be so stupid as to continue to try to collect money on a debt that has been paid in full, from a member of a professional group of violent felons-for-hire, because the player has paid up the money but not the Karma.


It's not as if Shadowrun even remotely tries to pretend that all NQs of the same point value actually have the same amount of negative impact on the player anyway. I'd just as soon that players bought cheap NQs for extra points and paid them off/sorted them out early than try to crack down on point-grubbing, especially since it's basically impossible under standard chargen to make an effective character who isn't a minmaxxed munchkin in the first place.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Stop. Fair is, in fact, relative to the player. I'm not going to make someone pay Karma to remove an NQ which they have gone to extraordinary in-game lengths to remove - such as removing NQ Enemy by finding the guy who's hounding you, interrogating him for information on everyone who would want to avenge him if he suddenly went missing and on his insurance policies, and then pre-emptively killing them and disarming his "in case I die" bombs before executing him, and making absolutely sure the HoG couldn't apply by (for instance) removing and incinerating his head.

So, there is absolutely no way that the guy you killed was not the real guy? Magic, Cloning, Patsy, Misdirection of Information, Etc. Plenty of ways to keep that enemy after all that "Hard Work" you seem to be so proud of. Or, they do not buy off the Enemy Quality and it morphs into a NEW thing (A NEW Enemy or something else entirely), based upon your actions. You do not get to remove NQ's from your sheet without paying the Karma Costs. You seem to be forgetting that ALL NQ's must have extensive and quality roleplaying involved in resolving them to start with. That is the Condition to actually removing them from your sheet, which takes Karma. *shrug*

[ShadowDragon8685]

So, there is absolutely no way that the guy you killed was not the real guy? Magic, Cloning, Patsy, Misdirection of Information, Etc. Plenty of ways to keep that enemy after all that "Hard Work" you seem to be so proud of.

There's only so many times you can pull that shit, especially when an entire Runner group invests as much effort into supermurdering someone who's giving the whole team grief. Especially with "Enemy" - that NPC effectively gets "Enemy: That whole goddamn Runner team" on his NPC sheet, too.

Or, they do not buy off the Enemy Quality and it morphs into a NEW thing (A NEW Enemy or something else entirely), based upon your actions. You do not get to remove NQ's from your sheet without paying the Karma Costs. You seem to be forgetting that ALL NQ's must have extensive and quality roleplaying involved in resolving them to start with. That is the Condition to actually removing them from your sheet, which takes Karma. *shrug*

"You do not get to remove NQ's from your sheet without paying the Karma Costs." - Yes, you do, if it makes sense that you do. If you owe money, you pay back the money and whatever interest is owed you. It's that simple. If you're being hunted by someone who's a schmuck, you off the schmuck and go the extra mile to ensure his torch doesn't get picked up by someone else. Not simple, but it works. Resolving all NQs does not require extensive and quality roleplaying. Sometimes it really is as simple as putting a fat credstick in a courier box and sending it to your local Mafia bookie with a note saying "Now we're even." Sometimes it is as simple as just deciding you've had enough Gremlins in your life and pay the Karma and your "curse" goes away.

[Lionhearted]

(A NEW Enemy or something else entirely)

"Hold on didn't I kill you already?"
"No that was my brother!"
"Wasn't the last guy I killed a brother too?"
"Big family... Now then! My name is Insistento Menacoya, you killed my brother, prepare to die!"
"I wish you would stop saying that..."