Granite Shell + Shields Options

[Umidori]

Granite Shell (15 BP): The character’s skin contains massive calcite inclusions that make it appear grayish and hard as rock. Treat Granite Shell as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor (p. 288, SR4). This quality is not compatible with any worn armor and counts for Armor and Encumbrance (p. 161*, SR4A*).

Helmets and shields do not count as separate pieces of armor; instead, they modify the rating of worn armor by their rating (Armor and Encumbrance, p. 161).

Armor and Encumbrance

If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.

Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body.

So Granite Shell gives you 3/3 Hardened Armor, and it counts as worn armor, per the Armor and Encumbrance rules.

Helmets and shields do not count as worn armor, but modify the rating of worn armor, which Granite Shell counts as. By RAW, it seems that having the Granite Shell quality, carrying a Ballistic Shield, and wearing any of the +2/+2 helmet varieties would give you a modified Hardened Armor of 11/9.

Not sure if intended... but I'm having a hard time arguing against it based purely on RAW.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

........ew

[Umidori]

Let's take it further. Dual-wield ballistic shields and you get 17/13 Hardened Armor.

Next, push it to the logical extreme. Add some Shiva Arms. Sextupal-wield ballistic shields for 29/21 Hardened Armor.

...of course, you suffer -6 to all actions, plus encumbrance modifiers, but hey! You're nigh invulnerable to physical damage! Just mind those stunbolts...

~Umi

[Smirnov]

You can take Shiva Arms twice to have six shields.
Toss an Armor spell over to get it right )

[Lionhearted]

To be fair... A big hulking guy with rock skin and a bunch of shields sound kind of awesome... Like a one man tortoise formation

[Umidori]

You'd need a Body of 15 to avoid encumbrance, though...

Or 14, if you discard the helmet.

~Umi

[BishopMcQ]

Only the 3 points would count as Hardened.

I also read it as incompatible with worn armor, not "counting as worn armor". So, the character would have to choose either Granite Skin or their Armor not both.

[Umidori]

If you have Hardened Armor, the question becomes can you modify that armor? There aren't any actual rules covering if you can or cannot modify Hardened Armor, so it's historically been left up to GM fiat, with two major camps on either sides of the interpretation spectrum. The above argument attempts to cope with this difficulty by invoking other, related rules.

Granite Shell counts for "Armor and Encumbrance". Okay, so what does that mean?

Well, for one thing, it means that Granite Shell isn't just ignored when calculating encumbrance. If you could wear a suit of armor on top of Granite Shell (which you can't), you'd combine the armor values of the Worn Armor + the Granite Shell, and then calculate your encumbrance off of the total value.

But you can't wear other armor on top of Granite Shell. So why is the encumbrance factor mentioned? Because you can still wear shields or helmets, as they do not count as worn armor, instead modifying your armor rating directly.

If you are naked, but holding a shield, your "worn armor rating" is still modified, even though you don't have any "worn" armor on your body. Your own natural armor of 0/0 is modified to 6/4 by a ballistic shield. Likewise, with Granite Shell, you own natural 3/3 armor is modified to 9/7 with that same ballistic shield. You're modifying the body's natural armor rating in each case. And please note that in the ruling for Granite Shell it doesn't say to treat it "as 3/3 Hardened Armor", but rather "as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor". Carrying a shield modifies it to 9/7 armor that counts as Hardened Armor.

~Umi

[Udoshi]

Carrying a shield modifies it to 9/7 armor that counts as Hardened Armor.

Oh wow. Excellent.

Question, though - I haven't been able to find a real answer.

How does granite shell and bonus non-worn armor(ie dermal deposits) interact with armor penetration?
Which 'armor' is penetrated first?

For example, does a DV3AP-1 attack automatically bounce off of granite+dermal/troll or not?

[Tanegar]

I cannot believe that this was intended. My ruling would be that, first, Granite Shell does not count toward Encumbrance; second, that its armor value is not additive with worn armor, including helmets and shields; and third, its hardening always applies, i.e., any attack that doesn't do at least 4 damage is ignored. Throw on an armored jacket, you get the jacket's 8/6 armor, of which 3/3 is hardened. Wear a helmet with it, you have 10/8, of which 3/3 is hardened. In mufti, you just get your 3/3 hardened.

[Umidori]

Whether if was intended? Who can say. Whether it's supported by RAW? I think I've found a way that it is, sadly.

I don't agree with your ruling it not counting toward Encumbrance, since it goes out of it's way to specifically state that it does.

~Umi

[BishopMcQ]

Umi--

My reading of the Hardened Armor Power (RW p 212) is that the Rating of the Hardened Armor is compared against the DV of the attack after Armor Penetration. If the DV is less than the Rating, it bounces off harmlessly. If it exceeds, then the Hardened Armor provides Ballistic and Impact armor equal to the Rating.

A Ballistic shield modifies the Ballistic and Impact armor ratings, it does not modify the Hardened Armor rating. Therefore, someone with Granite Skin carrying a Ballistic Shield would have 9 Ballistic and 7 Impact armor but the attack would only bounce off harmlessly if the DV is less than 3.

If you find something that specifically states that a Ballistic Shield modifies the Hardened Armor rating, please post a quote.


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Re: Incompatible with Worn Armor, but counts for Encumbrance -- The armor rating does not stack and would be replaced by armor. So wearing an armored Jacket would give 8/6 armor, 3 points Hardened, and an encumbrance of 11/9.

[Tanegar]

Whether if was intended? Who can say. Whether it's supported by RAW? I think I've found a way that it is, sadly.

I don't agree with your ruling it not counting toward Encumbrance, since it goes out of it's way to specifically state that it does.

~Umi

My reasoning on Granite Shell not counting toward encumbrance is that you can't be encumbered by your own skin. YMMV, of course.

[Umidori]

Unless your skin is rock hard and inflexible. If you've ever had a joint lock up, you'll know how hard it can be to move with an inflexible limb.

~Umi

[Smirnov]

Never mind, should have read all the answers before asking.

[Tanegar]

It can't be inflexible at the joints, otherwise the character wouldn't be able to move at all.

[Umidori]

I think the lesson we can all take away from this and several other threads I've made recently is that Runner's Companion wasn't thought through enough and has terrible rules wording. Especially the Changelings.

~Umi

[Tanegar]

On this point, we agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[FuelDrop]

I think the lesson we can all take away from this and several other threads I've made recently is that Runner's Companion wasn't thought through enough and has terrible rules wording. Especially the Changelings.

~Umi

Eeeup. Have to say that Granite Shell is one of the worst PQs I've ever seen, at least without shield spam.

[Blade]

I guess none of the freelancer is a lawyer, and/or CGL doesn't want the rules to take ten times more space to make sure RAW=RAI.

[Draco18s]

Granite Shell + Shield should not make more armor, all of which is hardened.

In any case:

3/3 hardened armor is worse than useless. Find me something that does only 2 DV worth of damage (3, after including the net hit it takes to hit).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Granite Shell + Shield should not make more armor, all of which is hardened.

In any case:

3/3 hardened armor is worse than useless. Find me something that does only 2 DV worth of damage (3, after including the net hit it takes to hit).

Standard Unarmed Combat, Strength 4. Base DV is 2, +1 for the Net Hit (total of 3 DV). Just like you asked.
Would have thought that one was obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

still makes it all but useless.
under SR3 rules you ignored all stun damage . .
so armor up and then convert damage to stun from armor and then ignore that would make it usefull.
but maybe a bit overpowered . . but everything that deals enough damage to stay physical ignores the hardened aspect of armor . .

[Draco18s]

Standard Unarmed Combat, Strength 4. Base DV is 2, +1 for the Net Hit (total of 3 DV). Just like you asked.
Would have thought that one was obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And how many people are complete retards who PUNCH a giant turtles unarmed?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And how many people are complete retards who PUNCH a giant turtles unarmed?

In Shadowrun, you do what you have to do... If you are in the position where unarmed combat is your only option (and yes, it does happen), you roll the dice and hope you can overcome that damned armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is no different than using Unarmed Combat against the SWAT guy with 12 points of Normal Armor, now is it?