[X] My Assistant

[Falconer]

Nice find on the vision mag lens system implant. Or the raw 'image magnification' eye implant sans cybereye... people forget you can get them without getting a cybereye. (it either costs 0.1 essence on it's own... OR 2 capacity out of a cybereyes system).


But even there, it's the size of a pea and extends back into the eye cavity... try to think about blinking with something the size of a pea between your eye and your eyelid for a contact lens.... a little too big.

[_Pax._]

Talk about tunnel vision (in contacts anyways), since optically it would always be on (like reading glasses or a Rifle-Scope)...

Not necessarily. A shape-morphing lens could produce differing levels of magnification, possibly all the way down to 0x.

[Modular Man]

So, rather than the usual "It's Magic!", for once "It's Future-tech!"? I like it.
Ever since I saw that being mentioned on another forum, I've gotten a quite liberal view about which technical gadgets in SR are really feasible and why things that are nowadays impossible can still be implemented in the game world, even though canon doesn't mention every common household item in detail... Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest, had some conflict over that IRL sometime back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Whenever I cook up something that is not strictly RAW, I simply try to rather tweak existing stuff, use as many existing rules and as few rulings in general as possible, and every benefit has to have a drawback.
I call that creativity, and I think that it can, at least partially, be discussed on this forum.
Of course, this accounts only for items of the mentioned "middle ground", as custom spells or the "Special Machinery" vehicle modification.

Back on topic: There have been other attempts to custom spells. I, for one, especially like the take on Summoned Weapons.

[Mäx]

*Cough*

Something like this, perhaps?

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/09/13/t...-in-aging-eyes/

That is a non cyber eye eye mod not a contact lense.

[Draco18s]

That is a non cyber eye eye mod not a contact lense.

In other words:

Problem is you need two lens and space between them for long range vision mag. A single magnifying lens just doesn't work past a very short distance. You'd effectively have a monocle stuffed in each eye to get optical vision mag in a small package.

?

Why does no one bother reading the posts I quote in my posts and ASSume I'm talking about one thing when I'm not?

[Mäx]

Why does no one bother reading the posts I quote in my posts and ASSume I'm talking about one thing when I'm not?

Didn't think you would post something totally irrelevant, after all the post you quoted was about why contacts don't work for magic.

[Draco18s]

Didn't think you would post something totally irrelevant, after all the post you quoted was about why contacts don't work for magic.

Wow. I was agreeing with that post.

That's why context is important.

[Falconer]

No my point was that to get an optical zoom suitable for magic... you'd need something bigger than contacts. The optical structures are just too big to fit into something as thin as contacts.

Digital zoom... as an AR overlay just won't do for that purpose.


What he posted is practically the image mag eyeware (remember it can be installed without a cybereye).

[Draco18s]

you'd need something bigger than contacts.

Such as: real life tech, as seen in this picture.

I find it absurd that "I am disproving your point by proving your point" to be the more accepted interpretation of my post than "I am backing up your point with this example."

[_Pax._]

What he posted is practically the image mag eyeware (remember it can be installed without a cybereye).

What he posted, is the Image Magnification eyeware, probably at R0 ... in 2013.

How much smaller might it be, in 2073?

[AndrosDeragon]

All I know is I have yet to convince a GM to let me play a demolitions mage with a 'turn to c4' spell... as I see if if i can turn them into a limestone statue of Ca(CO3)... why not some explosive nitrate instead! Instead of turn to goo... turn to nitroglycerine!...

Wow That's a spell I want now XD

GIMMEE!!!

Turn to goo... you have a new variant to abhor and terrify GMs with!...

Truly Terrifying my friend.

Alright I got this. Introducing way number seven of breaking a mage during chargen.

Requires high magic, four ranks in spellcasting, six ranks in alchemy (Both specialized, of course). Also a hacksaw. Day Job: Homeless Shelter is also helpful, but not required.

Turn to Copper / Gold / Mercury / Silver
Physical
LOS
Permanent
Multiple Effects

DV (f/2)+11

In two easy steps you turn a random hobo into a neopolitan of orichalcum materials just waiting to happen. Add some aqua regia, swirl around in a bathtub for a month with a few minor adjustments... you just turned a 160 pound bum into 80 pounds of orichalcum.*


*You may have to cast from inside a Valkyrie module.

And you need to both read my post and take it in the tone it was presented rather than being snippy.... and apparently read the rules yourself, citation to follow.

Step 1: Turn hobo into non-magical, non-refined gold, copper, silver, and mercury. This is the only spell, be it from one multi-effect spell (not technically legal) or multi-casting other spells at much lower drain.
Step 2: Recover from drain.
Step 3: Hacksaw the elements apart, polish and refine to turn it into a "radical" version of the same reagent. (Page 82 street magic - "Radical Gold" is a magical good, but is nonmagical in and of itself.)
Step 4: Use that thar alchemy skill I mentioned having 8 ranks in to turn it into orichalcum. This requires minute adjustments every 8 hours for 28 days. AKA swishing it around in a bathtub of aqua regia.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: End up with 6.4 million nuyen worth of orichalcum. Retire.


So you are correct - I said two easy steps, it's actually six. I will endeavor not to let you down so much next time.

And there goes the "insert" market.

A lot of this theoretical discussion is centered in snippets of fluff, so I'd like to take a second and go over, in crunch, what magic can or cannot do.

1 - You have to have a link, be it visual or sympathetic.
2 - You can't control time or teleport. You can make yourself invisible, pass through all resistance, and travel at mach 37 to simulate teleportation however.
3 - You can't tell the future.
4 - You can't summon / banish spirits unless you use conjuring
5 - You can't raise the dead. Except for the exceptions.
6 - You can't create magical items (specifically mentioned: Foci, vessels) unless you use enchanting
7 - You can't bridge planes.
8 - You can only make simple things. A hammer is complex.
9 - Magic is dumb.

To my knowledge that list (160, Street Magic) is the only crunch explanation of what you CANNOT do with sorcery. Just because it hasn't been discovered yet (IE, the pseudo-teleportation only came about recently, in Spy Games), doesn't mean it's impossible unless it's on that list.

Creating higher concentrations of magic somewhere is something magically specifically CAN do (ala background counts). So just because there isn't a precedent, I ask again - why can a brand new ritual designed specifically for this new task, not create ore with higher concentrations of mana, which is the only difference between a reagent rock and a mundane rock.

Furthermore:
"Enchanters specializing in alchemy concern themselves with the transmutation of base materials to those of magical potency. The bulk of magical goods are products of alchemy" - SM 81

Huh nice to see there is some sort of limitation for magic I guess. Will keep those rules in mind when I start crafting magic.

Because that Unnamed Wage Slave Mage has got a Multi-Trillion nuyen a year research budget and a fully staffed research team behind him.

Joe runner PC doesn't. Pure and simple.

True so very true.

Anyway, I think some context is needed here.
I've only ever played two games of Shadowrun, the first was in 3rd ed and the second (currently) is 4th ed. In both games however magic was implied and only physical adepts were allowed. However since the first time I played I wanted to play a magic user (as a full mage)but I found the magic formulae rather disappointing (in the terms of wow there are very few spells I want). So I tried to make a few which despite how extensive Street Magic is, I'm still lost.

So ok I now know how does one start with custom spells, I still need to know now to make custom spells while the character is now in the game (and I don't mean buying custom spelss I really do mean making them).

This also raises a few new questions, how do you calculate magic needed for the spell, and then how do you calculate the drain the spell might give you.

Please if possible in the simplest form because I'm also using this to try to convince my current GM that magic isn't that hard to include in the game XP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Thanks again guys.

[tisoz]

I would suggest relating the spell you want as closely to an existing spell as possible. Then modify the formula to account for the changes you want.

In one example in this thread a poster created a Flight spell that is a variation of the Levitate spell. However, it seems that the Flight spell is way better in several ways, but those benefits are not balanced with drawbacks (like Drain) as well as some would like.

But, decide what you want the spell to do, try to find a spell doing something similar, then discuss how to modify and balance it with your GM.

Of course, post what you are trying to accomplish and get input from the forum and perhaps spark a few more lively discussions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shaidar]

OK, Andros. Quick & Dirty Spell Design

Arcana (Logic) is the Active Skill governing designing Formula for Magic of all sorts.

Spell Design Step-By-Step (Street Magic, p. 158)
1. Choose the spell category

Spell Category Threshold Interval
Combat-12-3 months
Detection-8-1 month
Health-8-1 month
Illusion-12-3 months
Manipulation-16-3 months

2. Choose the type

Mana or Physical

3. Choose the range

Touch, LOS, Area, Restricted Target, or Very Restricted Target

4. Choose the duration

Instant, Sustained, or Permanent

5. Determine effects

How the spell is Resisted, and how to determine magnitude of effect

6. Calculate the Drain Value

All Spells start with Force/2 as the Drain Value
Then you begin adding and subtracting additional Drain Modifiers Table (Street Magic, p. 163).

7. Final Touches

Once you and your GM agree on these qualities, the character can begin making rolls in an Arcana + Logic (Threshold and Interval form Step 1) Extended Test
Character pays the Kharma to learn the newly designed spell and begins casting custom Mojo.

Casting maid simple.
(SR4a, p. 177)
Spellcasting + Magic = Max gross Hits = Force


Spellcasting By the Numbers (SR4a, p. 182)
Step 1: Choose a Spell.
Step 2: Choose the Force up to the caster’s Magic attribute (unless overcasting—at left).
Step 3: Choose a Target within the caster’s line of sight.
Step 4: Roll Spellcasting + Magic.

All Visibility Modifiers apply.

Step 5: Determine Effect (see spell description).

Count hits up to the Force chosen in Step 2

Step 6: Resist Drain by rolling Willpower + tradition’s Drain attribute.

Mechanic functions like Damage Soak, only against yourself.

Step 7: Determine Ongoing Effects (–2 sustaining modifier).

Example Spell 1
Detect Life (Active, Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2)

Cast @ Force 4
DV = Drain Value = F/2 = 4/2 = 2 for this casting

Detection Range = Force x Magic in meters.

Example Spell 2
Stunbolt (Direct) a.k.a. the Mage's Predator Heavy Pistol
Type: M • Range: LOS • Damage: S • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1

Cast @ Force 4
DV = Drain Value = (F/2)-1 = (4/2)-1 = 2-1 = 1 for this casting

Mage rolls Spellcasting + Magic vs Targets Willpower
Mage total hits can't be greater than selected Force 4 for this example.
If Targets Willpower generates more than 4 hits, nothing happens.
If less than 4 hits for the target, every net hit greater than 1 for the mage applied to increase the damage against the target also increases the drain by 1.
As a Direct Combat Spell the target gets NO Armor to Soak the damage.

[KCKitsune]

I would suggest relating the spell you want as closely to an existing spell as possible. Then modify the formula to account for the changes you want.

In one example in this thread a poster created a Flight spell that is a variation of the Levitate spell. However, it seems that the Flight spell is way better in several ways, but those benefits are not balanced with drawbacks (like Drain) as well as some would like.

That was my Flight spell. The draw back is that it only affects the mage. You can't cast that spell on anyone or anything else.

[Falconer]

And you didn't follow the spell construction rules at all to do it... KCKitsune

Starting with levitate as the base... at +1 drain code...

In step 3.. Shaidar's post should read more like Area/LoS/Touch <- mandatory pick one. Restricted/very restricted <- optional pick 1 if used.

You change the range to touch (-2), and also add very restricted target (-2). The resulting spell is drain code -3. Just like yours... only at this point IT IS IDENTICAL TO LEVITATE.

You completely ignored that anyone else could copy the spell after seeing you use it. And that your wish to not use a spirit power to enhance the effect did not mean others wouldn't. The spell cannot be evaluated in a vacuum of your personal use only. So you raised the speed up to ludicrous levels of effect on the base spell. You also completely ignored that your spell being self only changed the drain code from +1 to -3 all on it's own... and proceeded to still modify the effect to ludicrous levels.

If you had engaged the extra mod of +2 drain for major effect in step 5 (a full order of magnitude better than levitate) still resulting in a paltry -1 final drain code. I wouldn't have given you grief. Just stated it breaks when combined with the movement power and cautioned against it or lowering the movement enhancement.

Put bluntly... self only doesn't change the order of the effect... self only gives you a large starting drain reduction which you were happy to take... then greedily go for more. By your logic... I could make a +1 drain levitate spell equal to levitate in all aspects except it moved them 10x faster! (LOS, no restriction, physical manipulation, 10x the effect for no increase in drain!). That's why your example, was an extremely poorly crafted example of spell design.

[KCKitsune]

... (removing wall of text) ...

OK I can see that, but I did say and I quote:

I'll concede that times 10 may be too much, but times 5 should be more fair.

I'll even change out the Minor effect to major effect. That should change the drain code to (F/2)-1. This way it's more in line with a limited use* spell.


* == you can't use it on objects or other people.

[tisoz]

That was my Flight spell. The draw back is that it only affects the mage. You can't cast that spell on anyone or anything else.

Ok, so start with a Levitate spell modified to Caster only. Figure the Drain code. Then modify from there to include the other variations. Imo this is going to be harsher than what you created.

[Halinn]

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, KCKitsune, double dipping the Very Restricted target and Touch for a self-only spell seems to be gaming the system a lot, since you're essentially getting paid twice for the same thing.

[Falconer]

No Halinn... that's not what people were criticizing at all. If you're going to make a self-only spell you pretty much always default to touch/very restricted for -2 (touch) -2(self only... very restricted) == -4 drain offsetting other drain modifiers.

The spell rules are very explicit in this point and you are dead wrong... restricted and very restricted target are mutually exclusive as per their text, they are not listed as incompatible with anything else. They are always added in addition to targetting range. *EVERY* spell must have a range of Touch/LoS/Area. I can make an area spell with a restricted target list (metahumans) or a very restricted target list (trolls). In which case it's +2 drain for area... and -1 or -2 more for the target restrictions. This is how you construct spells like wreck/demolish guns.


The reason others called KC was because he created a 'major' effect and didn't include the +2 extra drain as the spell construction rules state and maybe increased it too much for it to be considered a mere 'major effect' on the table. Had he just said here's levitate... at +1 drain... now I'm increasing the effect for +2 drain to +3... but then restricting the range for -2, and target for -2 more... for a final spell of -1 drain code. It would have been a good example. Instead he insisted on arguing that because the spell was 'self only' he was fully justified in increasing it's effectiveness without modifying the drain any more. The spell rules don't work like that... effectiveness is a seperate drain modifier and has nothing to do with how restricted the spells target is.

[_Pax._]

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, KCKitsune, double dipping the Very Restricted target and Touch for a self-only spell seems to be gaming the system a lot, since you're essentially getting paid twice for the same thing.

Except, "very restricted target" could simply be a spell that only works on "red-headed elf women", or a specific True Spirit .... but does so at LOS.

As a GM, I might compromise a bit, and give a slightly better modifier for whichever is the "better" one, and call it "self only".

[KCKitsune]

... snip ...

Except I did cave in... THREE POSTS before this post.

I still think that the original spell was OK, but I can see your point and I changed the drain code. Honestly compared to changing hobos into gold my spell was more than fair.

[tisoz]

Should I be more worried about you chopping up hobos or the fact that you're arguing how make him worth more when he's already like 170lbs. of pure gold?

Not to pick on anyone in particular, but I started seeing some weights and subsequent values for the gold/refined gold/radical gold/orichalcum.

I do not know what a given volume of gold weighs, but if a hobo were turned to gold, I am thinking a hobo sized mass of gold is going to weigh much more than the regular meat body hobo, so a lot more than 170 lbs. (Sorry, but this has been nagging at me for the last couple of days.)

[_Pax._]

Well, 1cc of Water weighs 1g - and that's a fair approximation for our putative hobo, since the metahuman body is mostly water.

1cc of Gold weighs 19.3g

...

Assuming the spell maintained volume, tt would not be unreasonable to just multiply the hobo's weight by 20. So that 170LBs hobo just became 3,400Lbs of .999 pure gold.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The density of a normal (not obese) human is ~ 1055kg/m³.

[Halinn]

Don't forget that the Golden Hobo could end up with a lot of airpockets to reduce the density, though a factor 20 is probably a bit on the large side for that.