[X] My Assistant

[Falconer]

What's this Psilosen? Source?

[Umidori]

Getting back on topic, I had my character design a personal flight spell.

...

Effects: Allows caster to fly at 10 times faster than a levitate spell. Is it overpowered... maybe.

Levitate is already a pretty reasonable speed to travel at if you cast well at a decent force.

~Umi

[KCKitsune]

What's this Psilosen? Source?

page 25 of Parageology

[KCKitsune]

Levitate is already a pretty reasonable speed to travel at if you cast well at a decent force.

~Umi

Not really. If you cast at force 8 and get 4 hits you move at 32. My character can run at 37 (Human SURGEling with Celerity). Normal casting (Force 6 and 3 hits) gives you a flight speed of 18. I wanted something that allows me to go and go fast.

[_Pax._]

RE: Sodium and Water: spells are LOS. Use a pair of binoculars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

RE: Sodium and Water: spells are LOS. Use a pair of binoculars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Get cybereyes with vision mag... same effect, but less obvious

[_Pax._]

Get cybereyes with vision mag... same effect, but less obvious

Or contact lenses. Remember, we're talking about a spell-chucker here. While even a mage sometimes finds cybereyes useful, if there are workable alternatives ... *shrug*

[KCKitsune]

Or contact lenses. Remember, we're talking about a spell-chucker here. While even a mage sometimes finds cybereyes useful, if there are workable alternatives ... *shrug*

As long as they're optical...

[NeoJudas]

Getting back on topic, I had my character design a personal flight spell.

Personal Flight Spell Drain: (F/2)-3
Type: Physical
Range: Limited Target (Caster only)
Duration: Sustained
Minor Physical changes

Effects: Allows caster to fly at 10 times faster than a levitate spell. Is it overpowered... maybe.

Not overpowered to me. Not yet. What is maximum safe speed for a PC? What is Handling/Flying test pool for this? This one to me is fairly straight forward, and not too powerful. Curious on your drain math however.

[Lionhearted]

Been considering turning movement to a spell...
Using hits instead of magic value as the modifier

[Falconer]

It's overpowered... 10x hits is very overpowered especially with the rediculously large amount of drain reduction you stuffed on top of it.

You're a magician you have access to spirits... my mage could literally hit Mach 1 using a high force levitate paired with a movement power boost from a high power spirit.


If you need to move that fast... the answer is simple... cast normally... you should be able to get up to 25'ish without too much hassle for most mages. Then use a force movement power on you to get that up to 150. Now you're zipping along at ground vehicle speeds without even pushing yourself.

If overcasting at say force 10 is involved, and summoning a force 10 spirit (if it's that important...)... that could potentially move the mage at 1000.... that's faster than many of the planes in the game.

[O'Ryan]

Alright I got this. Introducing way number seven of breaking a mage during chargen.

Requires high magic, four ranks in spellcasting, six ranks in alchemy (Both specialized, of course). Also a hacksaw. Day Job: Homeless Shelter is also helpful, but not required.

Turn to Copper / Gold / Mercury / Silver
Physical
LOS
Permanent
Multiple Effects

DV (f/2)+11

In two easy steps you turn a random hobo into a neopolitan of orichalcum materials just waiting to happen. Add some aqua regia, swirl around in a bathtub for a month with a few minor adjustments... you just turned a 160 pound bum into 80 pounds of orichalcum.*


*You may have to cast from inside a Valkyrie module.

[Lionhearted]

Never mind I can't read apparently

[Falconer]

O'Ryan:
You need to read the rules... you cannot create magical materials such as alchemical gold. That isn't just gold it's 'magical gold'. So while non-magical gold is pushing the envelope of game breaking mechanics... magical reagants you've gone run off the cliff.

Similarly you can't just take those ingredients and transform them into the orichalchum with a spell... that requires alchemy... and one full month of no life whatsoever to control the process.

[O'Ryan]

O'Ryan:
You need to read the rules... you cannot create magical materials such as alchemical gold. That isn't just gold it's 'magical gold'. So while non-magical gold is pushing the envelope of game breaking mechanics... magical reagants you've gone run off the cliff.

Similarly you can't just take those ingredients and transform them into the orichalchum with a spell... that requires alchemy... and one full month of no life whatsoever to control the process.

And you need to both read my post and take it in the tone it was presented rather than being snippy.... and apparently read the rules yourself, citation to follow.

Step 1: Turn hobo into non-magical, non-refined gold, copper, silver, and mercury. This is the only spell, be it from one multi-effect spell (not technically legal) or multi-casting other spells at much lower drain.
Step 2: Recover from drain.
Step 3: Hacksaw the elements apart, polish and refine to turn it into a "radical" version of the same reagent. (Page 82 street magic - "Radical Gold" is a magical good, but is nonmagical in and of itself.)
Step 4: Use that thar alchemy skill I mentioned having 8 ranks in to turn it into orichalcum. This requires minute adjustments every 8 hours for 28 days. AKA swishing it around in a bathtub of aqua regia.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: End up with 6.4 million nuyen worth of orichalcum. Retire.


So you are correct - I said two easy steps, it's actually six. I will endeavor not to let you down so much next time.

[Falconer]

I know it was tongue in cheek... just was bringing up that just because it's gold doesn't mean it's a raw reagent for alchemy. If you look on the chart in the back (p185)... you'll notice raw reagent gold... has a price listed which would seem to be to be higher than that of normal gold.

Enchanting 101... p79
Raw reagents:... a player can either collect the raw regents herself... see getting p79... or buy them from a talismonger.

p79:
"Magical goods re mde from naturally occuring materials known as regents. Reagents have a higher inherent concentration of mana than normal substances, but are otherwise identical to their mundane counterparts."

Clear evidence that 'mundane gold' and alchemical gold in it's raw/refined/radical state are not the same.

Page 80... raw reagants... "Most reagents gathered from the wild are raw reagents. By themselves, raw reagents have magical potential, but cannot be used to create magical goods. Magicians use alchemy to concentrate the mana within the reagant, creating a refined reagents... further enchanted into refined reagants..."


I'm extremely familiar with the rules for talismongering. I've done it a lot in play... from the gathering of reagents to the design and construction of assorted goods. To simply making rent during down time by harvesting raw reagents and refining them to make a fast buck or make my own ritual materials on the cheap.

Since I assume you're new... this is a great trick for a starting mage... start with an assaying kit.. so you can gather your own or craft your own fetishes, talismans, or ritual materials. Then you can start with a mother lode of raw reagents as well to use to craft your own materials and save a bundle if you're cash strapped and have time to do so at the start of the game.

I'm not out to insult you, i just figure a new posting account with a low post count is new to the game and isn't as familiar with the setting or the problems his spell suggestion has with it's base assumptions. That's why the rest of us were limiting ourselves to purely non-magical chemicals with nasty side effects just for the sake of being silly.

[O'Ryan]

"Mundane" gold appears to differ from "alchemical gold" in the refining process.

"Because modern refining processes would ruin the reagent for magical operations, metal reagents are worked by hand or smelted and worked in old-style blast furnaces."

By turning the hobo into the raw ore - a naturally occuring non magical substance - and then refining his valuable valuable metal flesh with hand tools and the enchanting skill, you turn it from the raw ore into a refined and then radical reagent. This seems to fit with "The Limits of Sorcery" (Street Magic 160) which states:

"Sorcery Cannot Create Magical Items.
Foci, vessels, and other items imbued with magic may not be crafted with spells; such handiwork requires the hands-on efforts of an enchanter."

With that in mind it seems perfectly plausible to create raw ore and then use your own enchanting skill to refine that into a reagent. If not, the very same wording suggests that "hands-on efforts of an enchanter" could turn it into what you want.



I am new to the forums, not to the game.


Edit: The current cost of gold, according to the google, is ~ $1600 USD per ounce. In 2006, when the book was published, gold was ~$650 an ounce. In SM pg180, gold is 1000 nuyen an ounce. I'm unaware of anywhere that gives the cost of gold in shadowrun outside of the "magical goods table."

Edit x2: Even if I am 100% correct and it's entirely possible to do this in the game, I'm still not endorsing this suggestion! I just want that to be clear - I wouldn't allow it at my table, and I would expect another DM to slap me if I tried it at their table. RAW aside, it's clearly violating the spirit of the game.

[Falconer]

I take the bit on page 79 to mean exactly what it says...

That 'reagants' are different than 'mundane' of the same for all grades. It has nothing whatsoever to do whatsoever with the refining process... though you could 'ruin' reagants and turn them into 'dross' losing their magical properties. I take that to mean most ores are unsuitable for talismongering and those that are somehow specially magical are always the result of some alchemical process. (be it natural or in the alchemy lab).

A better example... I've always taken it to mean... gold panned from one stream which has a ley line or domain (positive BGC) subjecting it to a natural alchemical process has rendered it into a raw reagant. While gold panned form the next stream over in the negative BGC is purely mundane, not subject to natural alchemical processes.

This view is backed up by numerous references in the fluff to certain locations being particularly good for collecting reagants even going back to first. Queen Euphoria comes to mind with it's introductory story of the coyote shaman heading to south america to 'poach' raw reagents from some corps turf.


The best you'd get is mundane gold ore by the reading of that text about raw materials and the ban on creating alchemical or magical items except via alchemy/natural collection. Transmuting someone into raw gold is about as far from naturally collected ore as you can get.


I'll note you're the only one making the claim they can get raw reagants out of a spell forbidden to make magical goods. You're also the only one making the claim any good can be turned into a raw reagant.

I do believe that if somehow nature can turn some ores magical and others aren't the process can be repeated... but it's not part of any known stretch of the rules published to date in any edition I'm aware of. That also doesn't mean the process is economical as it could require a process taking 10's or 100's of years... so it's simply a lot cheaper to mine and exploit natural sources.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So simple solution...

Take the Nonmagical unrefined hobo metals
Refine them alchemically to make a reagent
Then refine them again to make the Orichalcum...
Multiple refining required, so more than 28 days, obviously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*shrug*

[Umidori]

You can't just refine any raw gold. It has to be gold taken from unspoiled nature, and naturally infused with mana. That's why there are tests for finding and harvesting reagents. Your golden hobo doesn't qualify in the least.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't just refine any raw gold. It has to be gold taken from unspoiled nature, and naturally infused with mana. That's why there are tests for finding and harvesting reagents. Your golden hobo doesn't qualify in the least.

~Umi

Well, yeah, I guess there is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course, it is trivially easy to "Find that gold in the raw that is quality enough to make a reagent." Easier than actually finding real gold in the raw, in fact. *shrug*

But if you actually look at the descriptions of the actiual materials. They are bog-standard metals, just hand harvested. So, in fact, they ARE just normal gold. *shrug*

Because modern refining processes would ruin the reagent for magical operations, metal reagents are worked by hand or smelted and worked in old-style blast furnaces. Bog iron, red gold, native silver, and copper ore are examples of metal reagents.

What makes them inappropriate for magical practices is modern refining techniques... Not the actual material they are when harvested. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Of course, it is trivially easy to "Find that gold in the raw that is quality enough to make a reagent." Easier than actually finding real gold in the raw, in fact. *shrug*

But if you actually look at the descriptions of the actual materials. They are bog-standard metals, just hand harvested. So, in fact, they ARE just normal gold. *shrug*

Not true.

Magical goods are made from naturally occurring materials known as reagents. Reagents have a higher inherent concentration of mana than normal substances, but are otherwise identical to their mundane counterparts.

Before she can gather raw reagents, a character must first find a suitable spot of unspoiled wilderness - a virgin forest, an untouched cave, the bottom of the ocean, etc. Suitable sites are becoming rare in the Sixth World, and gaining access to them can be an adventure unto itself.

Players must then specify the type of reagent they are looking for (animal, herbal, metal, or mineral) and make a Location Test (see the Location Tests table, p. 81)*. Characters who wish to search for a more specific reagent (deer antler, amber, copper ore, fossilized bone, etc.) receive a –2 dice pool modifier to the test. A successful Location Test indicates the character has found a single reagent.

For simplicity, gathering the reagent without damaging it requires about 30 minutes and a successful Gathering Test. The gamemaster may decide that harvesting the reagent takes more or less time depending on its accessibility (i.e., digging up a deep vein of gold may take significantly longer).

* This is a Survival + Intuition (8, 1 hour) Extended Test, per reagent. Not a lot of characters have great Survival OR Intuition. And remember, this is only possible once you've actually found and gained access to an area of unspoiled wilderness. Such areas are often controlled by corporate interests for their value, or protected by local shamans seeking to preserve nature.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

So yuy bring the hobo out to the deep wilderness, THEN slap him with that spell. ;D

[Lionhearted]

Should I be more worried about you chopping up hobos or the fact that you're arguing how make him worth more when he's already like 170lbs. of pure gold?

[KCKitsune]

Not overpowered to me. Not yet. What is maximum safe speed for a PC? What is Handling/Flying test pool for this? This one to me is fairly straight forward, and not too powerful. Curious on your drain math however.

The drain is calculated as such:

Physical: +1
Touch range: -2
Very Restricted Target: -2
Physical Manipulation: +0
Minor Change: +0 (It's not changing the caster at all... just making it so he can fly)

It's overpowered... 10x hits is very overpowered especially with the rediculously large amount of drain reduction you stuffed on top of it.

You're a magician you have access to spirits... my mage could literally hit Mach 1 using a high force levitate paired with a movement power boost from a high power spirit.

If you need to move that fast... the answer is simple... cast normally... you should be able to get up to 25'ish without too much hassle for most mages. Then use a force movement power on you to get that up to 150. Now you're zipping along at ground vehicle speeds without even pushing yourself.

If overcasting at say force 10 is involved, and summoning a force 10 spirit (if it's that important...)... that could potentially move the mage at 1000.... that's faster than many of the planes in the game.

1: Why is it over powered? It only affects the caster, can't be used as a weapon, and is much slower than your Mach 1 mage.
2: The Drain calculation is legit I believe.
3: I don't want to have to convince a spirit to use Movement like that.