[X] My Assistant

[_Pax._]

I strongly disagree... you have an immovable rock vs irresistible force problem here. 'indefinitely' is the problem...

"Indefinite" only means "without duration" - remember that otherwise, unspecified, an astral signature lingers for a set period of time, depending on the Force / Magic Rating behind it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Honestly. Some random PC discovering hitherto unknown absurd magical theory on their own between bouts of getting shot at? And people somehow thought I was invoking Mary Sue in the other thread...

~Umi

And how is this different from some Randon Unnamed Unknown NPC discovering the secret on their own, exactly?

[Shaidar]

Because that Unnamed Wage Slave Mage has got a Multi-Trillion nuyen a year research budget and a fully staffed research team behind him.

Joe runner PC doesn't. Pure and simple.

[O'Ryan]

I still submit that just because you, the reader, don't know about it doesn't mean the corps aren't doing it in secret...

[Lionhearted]

Well... Im sure that the dragons knows a lot of things they won't tell us...

[_Pax._]

Because that Unnamed Wage Slave Mage has got a Multi-Trillion nuyen a year research budget and a fully staffed research team behind him.

Joe runner PC doesn't. Pure and simple.

Kevlar.

Seriously. Sure, sure, it was discovered in a major corporation's chemistry research lab. But the discovery was an accident, not the product of multi-million nuyen research projects. An accident.

Or, the Pacemaker. Wilson Greatbach was trying to build a circuit that would help to record fast heartbeats. But when he went to install a 10,000-Ohm resistor, he accidentally grabbed (and installed) a 1,000,000-Ohm resistor. As a result, the circuit pulsed for 1.8 seconds, then stopped for 1 second - lather, rinse, repeat. Poof, artificial heartbeat.

Then there's plastic ... yes, all of it. The first true plastic, Bakelight, was invented by Leo Hendrik Baekeland ... in his privately-owned, personally-funded laboratory, in 1907. He was trying to find an artificial substitute for shellac - used for electrical component insulation at the time - and instead, pretty much revolutionised every single industry on earth.

...

See, I think you forget that before the Age of Corporations, a lot of research, including very high level stuff (for the day) was conducted privately, not in giant-corporate-funded laboratories staffed with dozens or hundreds of technicians. So, sure, most new discoveries are going to come out of corporate and/or university labs.

But "most" != "all".

Consider, too: the very earliest discoveries relating to Magic, would not have been made in any corporate lab, or any lab at all. Because they would have been made during a time when many, perhaps most, people still refused to believe in any such "hocus-pocus nonsense".

So while it is unlikely that an unsupported PC would make a breakthrough in X or Y kind of research, rather than a corporate/university lab team ... it is still not impossible for it to happen that way.

[Falconer]

Yes, and they didn't operate in the shadowrun universe.... Even moreso had some big legal protections which actually allowed them to utilize and monetize their inventions.

Where any such moves would very quickly get them put very high on someones 'technical recruitment' roster.

Similarly, where you have a lot of very powerful people still around from the last age, who know enchanting better than you do... with so much of the old age built on magic instead of tech. Old dragons, let alone great dragons, and immortal elves are all probably aware of alchemical stuff like this if it even exists.

Also notice how these player/forum solutions are always handwavium... yeah I get some shaman to stuff it somewhere where it changes into this or that... then go harvest it... Most have no significant costs or problems.

If you notice my own posts... I've often said I think nature forms some natural alchemical processes which very slowly transform mundane into mana-infused/infusable reagants. The explanation for why there isn't an artificial copy of this is simple... because the natural one is so time intensive it's easier to just harvest what's already there or simply buy it rather than try and make it yourself. You're better off selling mundane stuff... and simply buying reagants off your local talismonger for a profit.


Just like you ignore the intent of the wealth power to make it very hard for a spirit to just create wealth for itself or others without leaving it's fingerprints all over it, making it easier for authorities to trace. No, any old person with astral perception (even the spirit itself)... can scrub off the 'indefinite' signatures. Making that bar so low that they might as well not even published it.


That's the problem with half this stuff.. the whole the rules don't say you can't mentality. Anything is possible... even ignoring the limits of the system. Provided the players stick within the limits of the system, no one will probably notice or have any reason to notice. But as soon as you step outside the bounds of the system.... then the spotlights turn on. Now suddenly, instead of being a runner and player... you're the target of the runs, non-stop. You're the one who'll be lucky to not turn up dead with his stuff stolen... or locked up in some gilded cage as some corps prize new acquisition, if you're lucky.

[_Pax._]

.... and attitudes like the one you've just displayed, Falconer, are why I always prepare for the most hyper-literalist GM possible. I don't make up my own gear when building a character - if it's not in a book, I assume it doesn't exist ... no matter how logical it is, no matter how real-world. Because I've played in games run by total dicks like that.

I choose not to run games like that; I choose to say YES whenever possible. If it makes the game more fun for everyone (myself included), than I don't give half a flying fuck if it's "within the limits of the system". I do it, and never look back.

[Lionhearted]

For the purposes of discussing on a forum you kind of must give recognition to the RAW, otherwise we have no ground to stand on.
It's perfectly fine to come up with ideas all signed PEACH* and discuss them.
But if you're trying argue a point and hope to achieve any kind of consensus you need to use RAW, the real hot potatoes is in the RAI however...

* PEACH: Please Evaluate And Critic Honestly

[_Pax._]

For the purposes of discussing on a forum you kind of must give recognition to the RAW, otherwise we have no ground to stand on.

Recognition, yes. Slavish devotion, not so much.

Simply recognise and clearly label when you're moving into Houserule Country, and IMO you're fine.

Fanatically ranting against anything that isn't Strictly By The Book, however, is not only a waste of everyone's time ... IMO it's actively counter-productive.

[Umidori]

The problem with going beyond what the rules lay out as possible within the established setting is that you're quite simply going beyond the established setting.

You want to play something your own way, at your own table, with your own custom rules? Go right ahead. But if you're discussing on Dumpshock about what is and is not possible within the magical system of Shadowrun, you have to work with the official material, not with custom stuff. Why? Because custom stuff has no basis for consensus. Everyone can have their own different set of custom spells and magical effects. It makes meaningful discourse difficult or impossible.

Heck, why even discuss your desire for custom spells on Dumpshock if you're not going to keep them within the framework of established rules? At that point, all that matters is whether or not your table is okay with the custom additions. If so, go right ahead and use them! If neither your GM nor your players find an addition to be broken or overpowered, go nuts! Don't even take it to Dumpshock! Because if you're not going to have a discussion based on mutual common ground - id est, the extant official rules and framework of the game system - then there's not much productive you can really get from others who aren't using your custom material.

There's middle ground, of course. If you're trying to figure out how to interpret something that has no clear official ruling, that's fine. People will disagree, and multiple possible interpretations will come up, and you just pick the one you like most and use it, even though none of them can really be called "official". Or maybe you're putting forth new custom PC archetypes you'd like to share with others, as I've seen people do, or new custom weapon and item listings, or even new missions and campaigns. All of those are reasonable things to discuss on the forums, with one caveat - they have to abide by extant rules and structures to have any sort of general acceptance. If you start straying into territory where you're directly contradicting the rules, you lose the ability to reach consensus.

~Umi

[O'Ryan]

I don't think any further benefit will be had from the Gold Hobo discussion. There are clearly two camps that don't agree with each other, and it seems increasingly likely that all this is gaining is decreased respect and open hostility.

[Darksong]

on the plus side, I was having a hard time deciding what my custom art assets should be in SRR and now I know one should be a golden hobo.

[_Pax._]

LOL @ Darksong

[Shaidar]

Hey all I want to ask and discuss on magic here, persifically on making your own spells at the beginning of character creation and In game spell creation. Mostly because I'm confused on the subject.

I believe the initial poster was expressing confusion on how to build custom spells within the rules. And additionally if custom designed spells could be taken at character generation.

[Mäx]

Or contact lenses. Remember, we're talking about a spell-chucker here.

Contact lenses dont really work for magic, as you cant you computer generated magnification.
Thats why cyber eyes are so common on mages.

[Lionhearted]

Mhm, it's covered in the errata FAQ... If you paid essence for it you can use it for visual links

[Draco18s]

Turn to Chlorine Triflouride would be more fun.

"For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”

Given that they gain a barrier rating equal to their body, it's a pretty strong goo . .

It is in fact as strong as stone.
*Points to the wording of Turn to Stone*

[Mäx]

Mhm, it's covered in the errata FAQ... If you paid essence for it you can use it for visual links

Since when does contact lenses cost essence?

[_Pax._]

Contact lenses dont really work for magic, as you cant you computer generated magnification.
Thats why cyber eyes are so common on mages.

I don't recall anything precluding optical magnification being installed in a contact lense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nor glasses, goggles, and so forth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't recall anything precluding optical magnification being installed in a contact lense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nor glasses, goggles, and so forth.

Talk about tunnel vision (in contacts anyways), since optically it would always be on (like reading glasses or a Rifle-Scope)...

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Except common sense - at least for contact lenses.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except common sense - at least for contact lenses.

That too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Optical image mag makes no sense for contacts... vision enhancement sure... (even go down and have some fluff about the contact is a single lens which can change it's shape eletricially and all that to provide dynamic vision correction; or AR cuing... things which provide an AR highlight to draw your mental attention to them resulting in the enhanced perception).

Problem is you need two lens and space between them for long range vision mag. A single magnifying lens just doesn't work past a very short distance. You'd effectively have a monocle stuffed in each eye to get optical vision mag in a small package.

Glasses and up sure... though that would be some pretty thick lens (actually multiple lens) in the frames... which would probably give them away.


I always thought a great idea for bioware retinal adjustment would be something like say 'eagle eye'... guess you could argue it as one of the transhuminist type genetic mods. The retina is packed with a much higher density of receptors... allowing it a biological equivalent of 'digital zoom'. (digitial zoom isn't about the lens at all... just about using pixels in a different way at the camera's 'retina').

[Draco18s]

Problem is you need two lens and space between them for long range vision mag. A single magnifying lens just doesn't work past a very short distance. You'd effectively have a monocle stuffed in each eye to get optical vision mag in a small package.

*Cough*

Something like this, perhaps?

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/09/13/t...-in-aging-eyes/