Transgenetic Alteration - Animal features, What would you allow? Options

[Makki]

Animal Features: Animal features can include any phenotypic
modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,
claws, and other animal characteristics. Note that such physical alterations
do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. Full functionality
requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).

As a power gamer I'd take Synaptic Booster 3 for no cost with Genetic Heritage. However, there's no animal, mundane or paranormal, with 4 IPs, therefore technically this genetic coding is not available to science.

But what is?
SB 1? Cheetah Reflexes, probably fine.
SB 2? Piasma/Cerberus Hound/Gabriel Hound Reflex. Needs discussion, because these look like awakened IP boosts
Muscle Augmentation? Yes, thinking of bears and the like.
Muscle Toner >2? I couldn't actually find an animal with high agility...Can I augment my troll with Elven agility?
Suprathyroid Gland?
...

From a GM POV or a reasonable player POV, what can you let somebody get away with?

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a power gamer I'd take Synaptic Booster 3 for no cost with Genetic Heritage. However, there's no animal, mundane or paranormal, with 4 IPs, therefore technically this genetic coding is not available to science.

But what is?
SB 1? Cheetah Reflexes, probably fine.
SB 2? Piasma/Cerberus Hound/Gabriel Hound Reflex. Needs discussion, because these look like awakened IP boosts
Muscle Augmentation? Yes, thinking of bears and the like.
Muscle Toner >2? I couldn't actually find an animal with high agility...Can I augment my troll with Elven agility?
Suprathyroid Gland?
...

From a GM POV or a reasonable player POV, what can you let somebody get away with?

Ehh, pretty much just the stuff from biotech, with the same essence cost. Thing is it's less likely to produce results, at higher cost and longer recoup times.

I'd see it for people that really --really-- --REALLY-- want to be a CAT girl, not just look like one. Where in you gotta kinda tilt your head a little. But hey. Party on.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I let my players take everything that costs 45.000nY (cost of the most expensive genetech treatment) or less with genetic heritage.

[Lionhearted]

Paracritters are not classed as animals in the sense of the rules, only mundane animals are.
and what are you getting at? from what I read there's no loophole, you want synaptic boosters you pay for synaptic boosters, nuyen and essence as normal... Only you're getting it from badger hormones instead of neural cord alterations.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Paracritters are not classed as animals in the sense of the rules, only mundane animals are.
and what are you getting at? from what I read there's no loophole, you want synaptic boosters you pay for synaptic boosters, nuyen and essence as normal... Only you're getting it from badger hormones instead of neural cord alterations.

Though I agree with you, the issue is getting Synaptic Boosters 3 for no Nuyen Cost through Genetic Heritage Quality.
At that point, who wouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Is that legal though?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is that legal though?

Technically, yes. Since

Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).

And because Genetic Heritage allows ONE FREE TRANSGENIC ALTERATION (as in at no cost in Nuyen), it is entirely legal, if a bit of a dick move. *shrug*
I allow Synaptic Accelerators 1 through the Genetic Heritage Quality, but nothing more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There is still some animosity here about such rulings, though. Lots of past threads have been done on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

I'd make it a "convince me" scenario, I'm not unreasonable... But you better have an essay with your background ready (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd make it a "convince me" scenario, I'm not unreasonable... But you better have an essay with your background ready (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"Convince Me" how? Transgenics exist, and all you need is a background where you have access to such things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I have a Character (Ex-Mossad) who has Transgenic Mods (SA1 among them) and he is a pretty good character, though still far from being as capable as a Street Sam fully kitted out.

Now, Had I allowed him to get SA3, well... that would have been a different story indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Some see nothing wrong with such things, and others are a bit more reserved in what they allow.

[Manunancy]

One point to consider is the character's age - realisticaly, genetic heritage cao nly grant you something that was available as a post-birth genemod by the time the character was born (basicaly, mom or dad got it and passed it to the kid). which means if your char is, say a 50 years old elf, you can kiss the quality goodbye as the character was bron well before the geneetech was available.

If I'mn ot mistaken, synaptic booster 3 is a 2050-vintage biotech and probably appeared as a genmod even later, which puts a fairly stringent limit on getting it through genetic heritage.

And depending on how the law is set, it could mean the character's parents are liable to a suit for illegal use of proprietary genetic material and unlicesned alteration of human genome (passing on said proprietary genes without having a license for performing genemods). Of course that's a worse case asumption.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One point to consider is the character's age - realisticaly, genetic heritage cao nly grant you something that was available as a post-birth genemod by the time the character was born (basicaly, mom or dad got it and passed it to the kid). which means if your char is, say a 50 years old elf, you can kiss the quality goodbye as the character was bron well before the geneetech was available.

If I'mn ot mistaken, synaptic booster 3 is a 2050-vintage biotech and probably appeared as a genmod even later, which puts a fairly stringent limit on getting it through genetic heritage.

And depending on how the law is set, it could mean the character's parents are liable to a suit for illegal use of proprietary genetic material and unlicesned alteration of human genome (passing on said proprietary genes without having a license for performing genemods). Of course that's a worse case asumption.

Well, it was commercially available at Vintage 2050. It was probably around a bit (or a lot) longer than that before it was commercially perfected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Technically, yes. Since

Just no.
People always ignore the preceding text, that part is still about.
"Animal features can include any phenotypic modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails, claws, and other animal characteristics"

It does not mean you can just get any bioware you like as genetech.

[All4BigGuns]

Just no.
People always ignore the preceding text, that part is still about.
"Animal features can include any phenotypic modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails, claws, and other animal characteristics"

It does not mean you can just get any bioware you like as genetech.

The EXAMPLES you pull from the quote would be to get the Essence cost and price listed on the table for the genetech modification. As stated later in the same paragraph, other things are possible to be done with it using the price and Essence cost of bio ware, so you are the one blatantly ignoring a section of the description.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is why there is a lot of contention... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Okay... I assume the intent for such features were for things like scent glands, gecko tips or spider silk.
But by the book you're technically allowed to, although... It doesn't reference bioware, it reference the biotech chapter. (As such you could be just as anal as a GM and forbid SB since it's not in augmentation)

[All4BigGuns]

There are definitely animals with two passes, so level 1 Synaptic Booster is definitely possible. I'm not sure if there are any with 3, so level 2 might be--I'm not positive--but there are none with 4 passes so level 3 probably wouldn't be.

Personally, the main reason I "defend" it is that I like the idea of having the bio-ware stuff on a character through gene tweaking rather than as implants, and I personally would rather having it for all of my bio-ware.

[Lionhearted]

Well you're trying to get an 80k (16BP) Implant for 10 BP, you're also getting a price reduction on future genetweaks...
That if anything is trying to exploit loopholes in the rules, I plug loopholes. For everyones enjoyment. Not just the one guy that read all the books page through page and found that one little thing.
That guy used to be me, for the record.

[All4BigGuns]

Well you're trying to get an 80k (16BP) Implant for 10 BP, you're also getting a price reduction on future genetweaks...
That if anything is trying to exploit loopholes in the rules, I plug loopholes. For everyones enjoyment. Not just the one guy that read all the books page through page and found that one little thing.
That guy used to be me, for the record.

Think about it, dude. It's only 6 points less, and it's 10 less points that can be used for other qualities--unlike just spending the 6 extra to just buy the implant on that part--it's not that big a deal that it "needs to be plugged". If you're that adamant that it does "need to be plugged" a far better house rule would be just to ditch the quality.

[Lionhearted]

and 16 more points you can spend towards resources...
It's not house ruling when you act within the spirit and perceived intent of the item in question.
You've showed distaste for rule lawyering in the past, what would you class this as?

[All4BigGuns]

and 16 more points you can spend towards resources...
It's not house ruling when you act within the spirit and perceived intent of the item in question.
You've showed distaste for rule lawyering in the past, what would you class this as?

As something that's not actually a big enough deal to bother with changing anything. Just because something can be "abused" doesn't mean it will be on a consistent enough basis to bother changing anything.

[Mäx]

The EXAMPLES you pull from the quote would be to get the Essence cost and price listed on the table for the genetech modification. As stated later in the same paragraph, other things are possible to be done with it using the price and Essence cost of bio ware, so you are the one blatantly ignoring a section of the description.

You pay the genetech modification cost to get those kinds of thinks as fully cosmetic, if you want them to function you pay the costs of the similar bio mod.
At nopoint does the nature of what kind of thinks you can get change.

[All4BigGuns]

You pay the genetech modification cost to get those kinds of thinks as fully cosmetic, if you want them to function you pay the costs of the similar bio mod.
At nopoint does the nature of what kind of thinks you can get change.

The "full functionality" phrase would do so. That would include things such as attribute affinities from the animal, reflexes (passes) and stuff like that.

[Umidori]

I agree. Moving with cat-like movements and grace, with the physical motions and visual aesthetics of a cat? Doable at the base level. Moving with hyper cat reflexes? That requires "full functionality".

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

All in all though it seems like the biggest hissy fit spawns from using it with that Genetic Heritage quality. Instead of house ruling to make the gene treatment nigh-worthless for anything but "fluffy" considerations, it would be a far better house rule (like I said before) to just house rule that the quality doesn't exist.

Though also like I said before, I don't think it's actually a big enough deal to bother doing anything, and that just because something can be 'abused' doesn't mean it will be consistently enough to make it a big enough deal to bother with.

[Mäx]

The "full functionality" phrase would do so.

Not really no.
Stuff changing from cosmetic to fully functional, has no bearing on what kind of thinks can be gotten.