[X] My Assistant

[Avalon2099]

I have a PC in my group who is currently trying to get a Force 12 Power focus? How much would a Force 12 Power focus cost both Nuyen and Karma wise? also can she make it herself to reduce the cost? What are the requirements for using this foci?

Magic is one of the areas I am not entirely familiar in Shadowrun, being a new GM to this system.

If someone could breakdown the costs and step by step process to get it and whats entailed/required for it that would be great.

[ggodo]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 300000 by my count. Oh, and an availability of 60R which means that you've got to make availability tests until you get 60 hits, with each roll being a week of ingame time. Long Story Short, it's a ton of money and a ton of in game time. The option of building it yourself means that the player has to go find the pieces, likely rare woods, animal parts, jewels, and such, then succeeding on a similar difficulty-level Enchanting test to produce it. Basically, it's like getting Deltaware for the non-mages. Really, really, hard. Besides, I don't know what dice is normal at your table, but an extra 12 dice on every test is a lot.

[All4BigGuns]

Not to mention a total of 96 Karma just to bind the darn thing.

All said and done though, Force 12 Power Focus? YES PLEASE!

[DMiller]

Something else to keep in mind that's 96 karma before the focus is usable at all, you can't partially bind a focus it's all or nothing.

-D

Edit:
Creating the focus herself would require (as per SM pg 83+)
Arcana + Logic (144, 1 day) test (I'd be sure to use the depleting dice pools rules) to create the formula.

After the formula is completed then comes the crafting which is a base of:
Enchanting + Magic (16 + object resistance, 1 day), once successful the enchanter pays 1 karma and the focus is ready for bonding.

There are a lot of other things in play with creating a focus, please reference Street Magic page 79+ (Enchanting 101).

[SpellBinder]

Too bad going to make a Force 12 Power Focus of your own is almost as bad as buying it outright. Researching the formula would be an Arcana + Magic (144, 1 day) extended test. Buying the formula instead would cost only 24,000¥ (compared to the completed product cost of 300,000¥), but at an availability of 96R to track down, and you're still testing at 1 week. Too bad spirits can't aid in researching a focus formula.

After that it looks a bit easier. Creating a Force 12 Power Focus is going to require a Force 12 lodge, and if you're going to do it in your own lodge means you've got to have Magic 12, but then you should already have Magic 12 in order to be able to bond a Force 12 focus in the first place. Making the desired object a Force 12 focus is an Enchanting + Magic (16 + Object Resistance, 1 Day) extended test, with a -12 DP penalty for the Force of 12, and costs 1 karma once complete. Then there's the all-or-nothing 96 karma cost to bond it once it's done.

On the plus side, you should be able to earn some karma while you're out and about trying to harvest the special telesma and/or orichalcum to give you a really good dice pool bonus to the overall creation of this focus. (SR4a, 190 or SM, 83-84 for more details)

[Avalon2099]

Too bad going to make a Force 12 Power Focus of your own is almost as bad as buying it outright. Researching the formula would be an Arcana + Magic (144, 1 day) extended test. Buying the formula instead would cost only 24,000¥ (compared to the completed product cost of 300,000¥), but at an availability of 96R to track down, and you're still testing at 1 week. Too bad spirits can't aid in researching a focus formula.

After that it looks a bit easier. Creating a Force 12 Power Focus is going to require a Force 12 lodge, and if you're going to do it in your own lodge means you've got to have Magic 12, but then you should already have Magic 12 in order to be able to bond a Force 12 focus in the first place. Making the desired object a Force 12 focus is an Enchanting + Magic (16 + Object Resistance, 1 Day) extended test, with a -12 DP penalty for the Force of 12, and costs 1 karma once complete. Then there's the all-or-nothing 96 karma cost to bond it once it's done.

On the plus side, you should be able to earn some karma while you're out and about trying to harvest the special telesma and/or orichalcum to give you a really good dice pool bonus to the overall creation of this focus. (SR4a, 190 or SM, 83-84 for more details)

So she HAS to have a magic 12 in order to create a Power Focus of 12? Can she not use her Groups lodge? Shes with the Bear Shamans, or whatever they are called.

[Makki]

but then you should already have Magic 12 in order to be able to bond a Force 12 focus in the first place.

I think you're mistaken here. I believe you can have foci of a force higher than your MAG.
However you need at least MAG 6 to not immediately gain focus addiction, assuming you do not already have any other foci bonded.

For my part, the -12 on the Enchanting test is seriously troublesome...

[All4BigGuns]

So she HAS to have a magic 12 in order to create a Power Focus of 12? Can she not use her Groups lodge? Shes with the Bear Shamans, or whatever they are called.

To make it yourself yeah, but if you just buy one (assuming you can find one that good) it's a lot less cost (in karma).

[SpellBinder]

Well, for some reason I had it in my head that you couldn't bond a focus with a Force higher than your Magic. For what I can find, you could have a Magic 3 and still be able to bond a Force 12 focus (limit of the sum of all foci at Magic * 3). Guess I had that wrong.

If the magician has access to a Force 12 lodge of her tradition (sounds like she does), then she can do the enchantment herself.

[thorya]

It's a smaller cost but it's worth noting that the player will also need a force 12 lodge to make this themselves.

Cost 6,000 nuyen
12 days to set up.
Availability 24 for the materials.

Even if we assume an Arcana + Logic of (12), to research you should expect 36 days, if you don't use degrading dice pools, which I would suggest doing here.

And the enchanting test is hard, if we again assume a dice pool of Enchant + Magic (12) to start with. -12 for the force of the focus puts you at 0 on your dice pool. You use exotic telsma for the +4 (no price guidelines here, but based on the description of dragon hide and unicorn horns I'm thinking expensive), a unit of orichalcum +2 (50,000) and 12 exotic reagents of the same type (a number equal to the force) for an additional +1 for each set of 12 exotic reagents (I would use the 1d6 x 10,000 as a price guideline for how much each one costs, less if they roleplay acquiring them). So you're back at 7 for your dice pool, with a 1.5% chance to glitch on each test and 5 or more test before you finish. Again, I would probably use a diminishing dice pool.
Plus you probably want an enchanting shop (50,000).

I would put the cost to make it yourself: 24,000 for the formula, 50,000 exotic telsma, 50,000 orichalcum x 2 (cheaper than reagents for a focus this high a force) and rental of an enchanting shop for a month 1,500. 175500 nuyen, I would round that to an even 200,000 nuyen.


Edit: Guess I got ninjaed on the lodge thing and the -12 dice pool.
Also, a focus this powerful is going to attract a lot of attention. If the character tries buying it, any glitches on the negotiation+Charisma are sure to bring the attention of a dragon or free spirit. And once it is made, it's going to be an astral beacon of things looking to mess with you.

[Falconer]

Yes... someone else noticed the big -dice penalty on the actual enchanting test. Though the actual enchanting test is still far too easy compared to the design arcana test.

Another problem as other pointed out... a force 12 focus of anything is a serious attention getter.. and not one you can mask more than likely. You can't mask things with higher force than your own magic score, and can only mask a number of individual items up to your initiate grade with extended masking.

Others brought up magic addiction problems.

And 144 on an extended test is not going to happen unless you ignore the -1 dice per extended test roll. Then you run into the problem of anyone can do anything no matter how difficult.

[TheOOB]

I can think of a couple immortal elves and great dragons who may kill to get a magical item that powerful. Force 12 anything is so powerful and rare that I doubt any runner type character would want it lying around. It's the same reason shadowrunners don't use military attack vtols all that often.

[Smirnov]

One other option I would five thought to is that such powerful foci are probably artifacts in themselves. There can be an adventure or a couple of them while trying to get one. And it will certainly attract attention. If I recon correct, Harlequin's rapier is force 12 weapon focus for example. Power focus would be more powerful and rare.

[thorya]

I think a more accurate description of the cost high force focuses would be achieved by using Force^2 x Constant in the price rather than Force x 25,000.

Maybe Power focus cost = Force^2 x 10000

And even that's low for really high power foci.

[SpellBinder]

Harlequin's rapier is Force 16, along with up to 24 random buttons that are up to Force 10 Sustaining foci (12+2d6 at Force 4+d6 each). But then he's also got Extended Masking and is at least a level 24 Initiate. (Street Legends Supplemental)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One other option I would five thought to is that such powerful foci are probably artifacts in themselves. There can be an adventure or a couple of them while trying to get one. And it will certainly attract attention. If I recon correct, Harlequin's rapier is force 12 weapon focus for example. Power focus would be more powerful and rare.

Harlequin's Sword is Force 16.
EDIT: Ooops... Ninja'ed by Spellbinder.

[Avalon2099]

Well after reading these replies, it seems like there is no real way she can accomplish this as easily or cheaply as she seems to think it will be, she is a member of Bear Doctor Society, and from what I see they only have a magical lodge of 8, would the group even allow a member to make a Foci for themselves and their own selfish use? They seem like a more community oriented group 'these powerful items are for group uses and gatherings'

Does she still need a personal MAG attribute of 8 to use the lodge of the group?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does she still need a personal MAG attribute of 8 to use the lodge of the group?

You do not need a Magic of 8 to use a Lodge of 8. However, you are capped at Force 8 for Lodge Use (you cannot go to Force 9+ in a Lodge of Force 8 ).

As for whether her group would allow a personal Focus. Why would they not?

[Avalon2099]

Just seems like an easy way to get ahead, for personal selfish gains... X joins group Y to gain access to Z in order to craft something they would not normally have. I am not against it im just looking it it from various POVs

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just seems like an easy way to get ahead, for personal selfish gains... X joins group Y to gain access to Z in order to craft something they would not normally have. I am not against it im just looking it it from various POVs

Happens in every group. The trick that I use is to craft the group to be an intrinsic part of the character's objectives (you are not likely to join, or be accepted into, a group that is not in keeping with your objectives to start with). You are not going to get away from a die-hard user, though. And in the end, it may cost him in the form of his connection to his group. *shrug*

[Lionhearted]

Harlequin's Sword is Force 16.

What about the other sword?

[Sinistra]

Seems learn something never about Foci everyday, I had no idea they could get so ridiculous. I only having rating 2 and 3 foci on my main character. Though I guess other than the Nuyen, Karma, and the fact that is is very powerful, will be its own issues for the PC.

[All4BigGuns]

Maybe Power focus cost = Force^2 x 10000

And even that's low for really high power foci.

Low my ass. That cost formula on the Force currently being discussed would cost 1,440,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[pbangarth]

I can think of a couple immortal elves and great dragons who may kill to get a magical item that powerful. Force 12 anything is so powerful and rare that I doubt any runner type character would want it lying around.

+1 to this.

[thorya]

Low my ass. That cost formula on the Force currently being discussed would cost 1,440,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Which for something that gives +12 to nearly everything you do with magic is a generously low price. It's in the same range as several pieces of Deltaware and if you're going to let a mage have +12 to their dice pools that is more than equivalent to the bonuses that your other runners could get from similar equipment costs. Especially since even without a power focus, a standard mage is more than capable. Doubling their dice pools should be expensive.

Edit: Changed the wording to avoid the inevitable, intentional misunderstanding.