[X] My Assistant

[All4BigGuns]

Which for something that gives +12 to nearly everything you do with magic is a generously low price. It's in the same range as several pieces of Deltaware and if you're going to let a mage have +12 to their dice pools that is more than equivalent to the bonuses that your other runners could get from similar equipment costs. Especially since even without a power focus, a standard mage is more than capable. Doubling their dice pools should be expensive.

And by the time said mage has enough spare money to buy and spare karma to bond that thing at that price, he should be able to get it. Just because everything is not 100% equal does not mean it isn't "balanced".

[Mantis]

How exactly are you going to pull off the thresholds to either source it or create the formula yourself? 60 or 96 or 144 is damn hard to near impossible. Not to mention the 96 karma. Avalon, I'm not sure what power levels there are in your game but how does your player look at those numbers and go 'yeah, I can do that.' I had a player once who wanted a force 7 weapon focus but once they were made aware of how hard that would be to get, they changed their minds. Force 12? No way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How exactly are you going to pull off the thresholds to either source it or create the formula yourself? 60 or 96 or 144 is damn hard to near impossible. Not to mention the 96 karma. Avalon, I'm not sure what power levels there are in your game but how does your player look at those numbers and go 'yeah, I can do that.' I had a player once who wanted a force 7 weapon focus but once they were made aware of how hard that would be to get, they changed their minds. Force 12? No way.

Entirely possible if you do not use descending Dice Pools, all it takes is time, resources and money...

[Mantis]

Whoops. I've been playing with the descending dice pools since we started playing 4th ed that I'd thought that was the default. Looking over the rule I see that it is only a suggested rule. Though in this case, I'd suggest Avalon take advantage of it.

[Jaid]

even without that rule, i'd expect a fair number of glitches to be rolled up to get to 144 hits.

and i seem to vaguely recall that each glitch on a formula research test for a focus makes it require an unusual ingredient (with no special benefit), though that could just be my brain playing tricks on me.

[Avalon2099]

Which for something that gives +12 to nearly everything you do with magic is a generously low price. It's in the same range as several pieces of Deltaware and if you're going to let a mage have +12 to their dice pools that is more than equivalent to the bonuses that your other runners could get from similar equipment costs. Especially since even without a power focus, a standard mage is more than capable. Doubling their dice pools should be expensive.

Edit: Changed the wording to avoid the inevitable, intentional misunderstanding.

Oh I have no intention of letting this go through as she wants it, I wanted informed opinions of fellow players and other GMs as to what they thought about it. So far I have gotten the message of "Very powerful people/dragons will be coming for it, very expensive to make on your own, even more expensive to try and buy it outright, even harder to bond to it... overall chance of something like this happening... nill to none. I think the character has a personal magic of 4-5 at best. Her groups lodge is an 8 at best.

My other fellow GM who is taking over is aware of the ramifications, costs and time required. He and I are coming up with some ideas to work on this.

[Avalon2099]

How exactly are you going to pull off the thresholds to either source it or create the formula yourself? 60 or 96 or 144 is damn hard to near impossible. Not to mention the 96 karma. Avalon, I'm not sure what power levels there are in your game but how does your player look at those numbers and go 'yeah, I can do that.' I had a player once who wanted a force 7 weapon focus but once they were made aware of how hard that would be to get, they changed their minds. Force 12? No way.

The group is roughly at 52 Karma, but I was giving out too much in the beginning, so I have since slowed it down to kinda balance things out.

Whoops. I've been playing with the descending dice pools since we started playing 4th ed that I'd thought that was the default. Looking over the rule I see that it is only a suggested rule. Though in this case, I'd suggest Avalon take advantage of it.

What are these descending dice rules people are talking about? are they a house rule or listed in the books as a standard way of doing things?

[Falconer]

Avalon... in which case at a magic 4 or 5... read the magic addiction rules in street magic.

Think 'gollum' and 'the precious'... her magic is less than half the force. Digital grimoire set the upper limit on total active foci at 2x magic in force before addiction becomes a problem.


Really don't know what else you expect... you've got a big list of complications...

The only thing I can think to add is that generally the cost of raw materials is half the final price of anything you build... that's just part of the general construction rules. (if you look at the rules for reagants... you'll notice that each time they're refined they double in value... in the matrix chapter the cost for building an upgrade from parts is half it's book value... etc. it's a general trend in the book... but once again spice as needed).

Unless the dice pool is very small... you're unlikely to get a lot of glitches on an extended arcana test to design. But that's the kind of thing which takes weeks/months of full time work to design.


Otherwise... yeah there's the question of unique and special reagants needed for construction. That's going to be based on her tradition... but that's the stuff of full blown adventures in their own right. Is she ready to pay for the other players to work for her while she pursues her own goals?


Avalon: it's right int he main SR4 book for extended tests.
Start with the full modified dice pool... then each 'interval' time... when you reroll the pool... you take out 1 dice. So a mechanic with 10 dice, and an interval of 1 hours... would roll 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 dice... then if it's not done he simply doesn't have the skills to do it... or wasn't lucky enough. (so in that case 55 dice total rolled... with average of 18 successes... but also the smaller the dice pool gets the more likely a glitch/crit glitch result becomes as well).

[bannockburn]

The group is roughly at 52 Karma, but I was giving out too much in the beginning, so I have since slowed it down to kinda balance things out.

To be fair, I've had a character once where I saved up his first 120 Karma or so to summon an ally spirit. Personal decisions, so a 96 karma focus ... well.
Sounds a bit weird though. Other advances would be far more useful, to my mind.

What are these descending dice rules people are talking about? are they a house rule or listed in the books as a standard way of doing things?

One die less per test in an extended test.
Simple enough, avoids a lot of hilarity (such as hacking 1 exploit 1 'hackers' entering the securest systems).

Extended Tests assume that given enough time a competent character will eventually complete a given task. Though it may seem that characters are guaranteed of success over time, this might not always be appropriate or dramatic The character may have a limited timeframe in which to accomplish the task, so she may run out of time before she finishes the job.  The gamemaster can also limit the number of rolls under the assumption that if the character can’t finish it with a certain amount of effort, she simply doesn’t have the skills to complete it.
The suggested way to do this is to apply a cumulative –1 dice modifier to each test after the first (so a character with a Skill 3 + Attribute 3
would roll 6 dice in their first test, 5 in their second, 4 on their third,etc)

Emphasis mine.

[Avalon2099]

Avalon... in which case at a magic 4 or 5... read the magic addiction rules in street magic.

Think 'gollum' and 'the precious'... her magic is less than half the force. Digital grimoire set the upper limit on total active foci at 2x magic in force before addiction becomes a problem.


Really don't know what else you expect... you've got a big list of complications...

The only thing I can think to add is that generally the cost of raw materials is half the final price of anything you build... that's just part of the general construction rules. (if you look at the rules for reagants... you'll notice that each time they're refined they double in value... in the matrix chapter the cost for building an upgrade from parts is half it's book value... etc. it's a general trend in the book... but once again spice as needed).

Unless the dice pool is very small... you're unlikely to get a lot of glitches on an extended arcana test to design. But that's the kind of thing which takes weeks/months of full time work to design.


Otherwise... yeah there's the question of unique and special reagants needed for construction. That's going to be based on her tradition... but that's the stuff of full blown adventures in their own right. Is she ready to pay for the other players to work for her while she pursues her own goals?


Avalon: it's right int he main SR4 book for extended tests.
Start with the full modified dice pool... then each 'interval' time... when you reroll the pool... you take out 1 dice. So a mechanic with 10 dice, and an interval of 1 hours... would roll 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 dice... then if it's not done he simply doesn't have the skills to do it... or wasn't lucky enough. (so in that case 55 dice total rolled... with average of 18 successes... but also the smaller the dice pool gets the more likely a glitch/crit glitch result becomes as well).

Ah thank you, found them. Yeah this definitely calls for those rules as this is something well out of her capabilities. I just think they are trying to prey on my lack of knowledge on the system as some of the players are well versed in the game mechanics and I am not so much yet. Which is why I come here to clarify and ask for help.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah thank you, found them. Yeah this definitely calls for those rules as this is something well out of her capabilities. I just think they are trying to prey on my lack of knowledge on the system as some of the players are well versed in the game mechanics and I am not so much yet. Which is why I come here to clarify and ask for help.

Just a note... If you stick to the Descending Pool optional rule, you will find that even a professional Mechanic is incapable of repairing a vehicle that needs serious work. Look at it this way, instead. If time is never an issue, most people will eventually accomplish what they set out to do, one way or another. And in this regard, the descending dice pool is ludicrous. If, however, the time factor matters (Need to make that hardware roll in 4 rolls or the guard catches you) then the descending pool option works well, as there are a lot of distractions that play into whether or not you can accomplish the task.

I cannot rebuild an engine in any appreciable time frame. And I am nearly a mechanical incompetent. But given unlimited time, I will (and have) accomplished such a task. *shrug*

My opinion: Let them work on that Focus item in their spare time (designing the formula, obtaining reagents, etc.) They are paying for it, after all. It is a much better option than having a Force 12 Ally Spirit after all, which would cost the same base 96 Karma, with no nuyen expenditure involved at all other than the Binding materials required to initially bind the Spirit before the Ally Ritual is applied (as well as purchasing a Rating 12 Lodge, which is trivial, honestly), and no risk of Focus addiction, and, you know, being a Force 12 Ally Spirit and all. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

I can think of a couple immortal elves and great dragons who may kill to get a magical item that powerful. Force 12 anything is so powerful and rare that I doubt any runner type character would want it lying around. It's the same reason shadowrunners don't use military attack vtols all that often.

I'd like to point out that the plot of a major shadowrun novel series was based around just that.

As much as people hate the Dragonheart Saga, that is what the books were about: two major players (a cyberzombie* and a physical adept, IIRC) fighting it out over a piece of bloody enchanted meat (Big D's heart / Force 12 power focus*).

*At the time, the current rules were that power foci directly added their force to the user's MAG rating, meaning the cyberzombie wouldn't be a burnt out mage any more.

[Mantis]

Well summoning and binding said ally is no trivial matter. Seems there is a good chance you will die trying as you must soak around 24P (assuming you don't have magic 12) average damage (assume 1 hit/3 dice) from the drain. And be left with a good chance you won't get the thing anyway if it rolls more hits than you. In addition the ally costs a minimum of 96 karma (nothing extra added to it). In addition you are looking at a 60 threshold to design the formula. Again a non-trivial matter.
I get the whole let the player do what they want idea but there should be some limits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well summoning and binding said ally is no trivial matter. Seems there is a good chance you will die trying as you must soak around 24P (assuming you don't have magic 12) average damage (assume 1 hit/3 dice) from the drain. And be left with a good chance you won't get the thing anyway if it rolls more hits than you. In addition the ally costs a minimum of 96 karma (nothing extra added to it). In addition you are looking at a 60 threshold to design the formula. Again a non-trivial matter.
I get the whole let the player do what they want idea but there should be some limits.

The limits are exactly the requirements to acquire the thing they want. How quickly do you actually expect this to occur?

[Falconer]

TJ: except that the arcana crafting rules are not a little bit here and there affair. They assume it's a full time job... not quite as bad as the rules for refining reagants or orichalchum where you have no life whatsoever for a month. But still it's a full time job in it's own right to do it.


As far as the mechanic goes... are you remembing to include extra bits for tools, helpers, AR-help (+1 to 3 dice)... if the mechanic is allowed to double his skill via teamwork with a second mechanic helping ON A MAJOR REPAIR... now you're looking at a serious dice pool. And got news.. a major major repair doesn't always work out... But yes 6 dice min is ignoring all the bonus dice available... +2 AR help... +3 teamwork... now suddenly we're at 11 dice... and most of those checks aren't looking that hard. Superior tools is something I've seen some GM's house rule as well... (if they have a shop when they only need a tool kit..).


So no I strongly disagree with the notion of just let them roll their full die pool all the time every time just because it's not rushed... it tends to make most things way too easy.



Speaking from experience in a ludicrously karma generous magic-run game. Binding a force 11 was a major deal (my magic score at the time was 11... and I refused to try and do anything bigger than I was!)... it required significant downtime to design the spirit in the first place... then more prep for the binding ritual... I pulled out a force 9 spirit of man with two increase spells and an awaken spell... summoned... bound it... then had it cast and maintain them to max out my drain attributes and fix it so stun wouldn't be able to knock me unconscious with the awaken spell as well. With a very high initiate grade (centering), maxed out drain... I was barely able to squeek through the 28'ish drain the thing pounded me with with about 4 or 5 boxes of physical left a full stun track (thank god for thinking to pre-cast the awaken spell)... and spending edge on both the binding and the drain rolls....

It went easier when I was mag 13 with a few more initiate grades... and figured the spirit needed an 'upgrade' for RP reasons... and upped it to force 12... I also made a new force 7 'lab assistant' ally... who focused on arcana, enchanting, and talismongering.... You have no idea how good it feels to have something researching those new spell ideas you always. I'm bringing that up because an ally spirit can aid study in the creation of a focus... if it doesn't have the skills to do it itself for you....

But little to none of this is the kind of thing you're going to do in a normal game... maybe just maybe making an 'assistant' ally like my lower force one... But even that was expensive.


Also just to give the OP an idea how many and what kinds of foci that high level caster had... 13 magic, 10 initiate grades... I bound a force 5 power focus early on (no one bound higher than force 6)... but also a force 5 health sustaining focus, a force 6 detection sustaining focus, a force 6 manipulation sustaining focus, I was eyeballing a force 4 centering focus or shielding focus as well... though I wouldn't be able to use all of them at once. But that's a 1000+ karma character... not a Mag 4 or 5 character straight out of chargen with no initiate grades. Also the game dealt very heavy with high magic... lots of dragons... free spirits.. drakes... etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Indeed, Falconer, and that is my point. You had to jump through hoops to get your Force 11 Spirit Ally. Should I have told you no, in that regard, because I thought it was overpowered? It took you time and effort, according to your example (and it was a LOT of time, effort and Karma). And you should be rewarded. At our table, the result would have been less useful to you, since that level of spirit would spend Edge to resist the Summoning and Binding, but there you go. You likely would have settled for Force 5-7 or so for the top dog Ally. We have processes in place to keep that sort of thing in check. They do not stop you from doing so, they just reinforce the consequences for doing so. If you can pull it off, then you should be rewarded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From what I remember, it does not require uninterrupted time to design Spells or Formulae. I could be wrong, though.

I have no issue with someone wanting to go through the motions to design and create a Force 12 Focus (of any type). It will likely take a LOT of time, resources and Karma. IF they get there, they should be rewarded with the object of thir focus, as it were. In my experience, however, it never gets there, because life happens, and that money, time, and Karma gets spent on something else entirely. *shrug*

[Falconer]

Notice I said 28'ish drain... hell yeah it edged the initial binding! That's ~14 successes on 22 dice. (our general rule is that any spirit bigger than your magic will edge it's summoning/binding; not just any spirit over an arbitrary force... more powerful mages can command more powerful magics...).

Since it was equal or less than my magic score though that was stun which gave me an extra 13 boxes of damage to work with before it hit physical... without awaken with 5+ successes though... it would have knocked me unconscious and a rather big nasty free spirit resulting...

The rebinding when I upgraded it's spirit formula went a lot smoother because I'd been good to the spirit... and it was getting more force (which gave it a new power), more spells, and skills added to it... so it didn't edge the rebinding test.



But my point was this was not a typical SR game... I really didn't enjoy it... ever seen what a force 21 stunball does to things?! It's not pretty... it tends to blow straight through the entire stun and physical damage track and go out the overflow on the other side.... but when there's so much counterspelling nothing but a high force spell in the high teens/20's will go through plus edge... you're kinda left with no option except a blender with two settings 'do nothing' and 'puree'. That tends to be what happens when games hit that level. Guns: save or die... spells: save or die... At that level it's much more of a game of politics... who do you talk with/work with... whose agendas do you support/oppose... who are your allies / 'allies' / and enemies... or friends of convenience.

A normal SR game would be you are the pawns on the chess board... okay maybe a minor piece like a knight or bishop... but you're not the chessmaster... you're just a piece on the board. This was much more at the moving the pieces level.

[Draco18s]

(our general rule is that any spirit bigger than your magic will edge it's summoning/binding; not just any spirit over an arbitrary force... more powerful mages can command more powerful magics...)

It's one of those things that makes me go "bwu?" at TJ's table. "Over force 4 spend edge" combined with the "drain equal to hits" (rather than the net hits)* makes it near impossible for anyone to summon over about F20 or bind above F10. Not even the supermagicians because their drain stats are hard-capped so low relative to their magic.

*RAW rule that I disagree with.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Notice I said 28'ish drain... hell yeah it edged the initial binding! That's ~14 successes on 22 dice. (our general rule is that any spirit bigger than your magic will edge it's summoning/binding; not just any spirit over an arbitrary force... more powerful mages can command more powerful magics...).

Since it was equal or less than my magic score though that was stun which gave me an extra 13 boxes of damage to work with before it hit physical... without awaken with 5+ successes though... it would have knocked me unconscious and a rather big nasty free spirit resulting...

The rebinding when I upgraded it's spirit formula went a lot smoother because I'd been good to the spirit... and it was getting more force (which gave it a new power), more spells, and skills added to it... so it didn't edge the rebinding test.

But my point was this was not a typical SR game... I really didn't enjoy it... ever seen what a force 21 stunball does to things?! It's not pretty... it tends to blow straight through the entire stun and physical damage track and go out the overflow on the other side.... but when there's so much counterspelling nothing but a high force spell in the high teens/20's will go through plus edge... you're kinda left with no option except a blender with two settings 'do nothing' and 'puree'. That tends to be what happens when games hit that level. Guns: save or die... spells: save or die... At that level it's much more of a game of politics... who do you talk with/work with... whose agendas do you support/oppose... who are your allies / 'allies' / and enemies... or friends of convenience.

A normal SR game would be you are the pawns on the chess board... okay maybe a minor piece like a knight or bishop... but you're not the chessmaster... you're just a piece on the board. This was much more at the moving the pieces level.

Yeah, I can agree with you here... I would not enjoy such a game either.
Though I would never tell a character they could not pursue the goal. They would just not likely get there. As I indicated, at least at our table, most Saved Karma is spent well before the saved for goal is ever met.

[Mantis]

OK. Let me reword my point slightly. It is highly unlikely you will succeed at getting either a force 12 power focus or force 12 ally spirit due to the high thresholds, karma and money involved. Sure the player can pursue it but to what end? You are as likely to die or get bored or need the resources for something else well before you get there and then the PC has wasted time on this project that could have been better spent on something actually attainable.
I would rather lay all this out to the player when they ask to avoid that time wasted and then if they still want to go for it try to find out just why they want this thing that is so far outside the norm. I've been down this road with a player before and it basically boiled down to wanting an extra die for attacks (weapon focus 7 vs a 6) but when this was pointed out he reconsidered. 1 die wasn't worth the extra hassle and effort involved. So in Avalon's case, he should ask just why the player feels his/her character needs a force 12 anything, especially when sitting at 52 karma. Sure he can just say 'yeah, go for it' but if it isn't likely to ever happen, what's the point?

[Falconer]

It's one of those things that makes me go "bwu?" at TJ's table. "Over force 4 spend edge" combined with the "drain equal to hits" (rather than the net hits)* makes it near impossible for anyone to summon over about F20 or bind above F10. Not even the supermagicians because their drain stats are hard-capped so low relative to their magic.

*RAW rule that I disagree with.

bwu?

And I have no idea what you mean by drain. The by the book rule is spirit drain is 2x it's hits... (+50% for invoked).
I don't even know where to think you're getting net hits on anything... as that makes no sense whatsoever. Net hits is the number of services... It's not like spellcasting at all (where you pay extra for the spell on top of the skill + magic). This is merely skill + magic... nothing more... then wrangling with another magical sentient to do your bidding.


This portion of the RAW has never done us wrong... and the risk of edge on binding bigger spirits binding is ever present. (and to a lesser degree summoning as well). It makes force 6's risky business to try and pull up on the fly. It make summoning anything higher than your magic risky business since you lose the 'stun buffer' and go straight to physical.

And trying to summon big spirits on the fly mid-run has always been more of a desperation move due to the risky and highly variable drain.


So the only bit there I disagree with is TJ's force 4+ (or 5+ depending on how you read it).. always spend edge. (some things a spirit will 'want' to do... such as asking a fire spirit to commit arson). For us, if it's bigger than you are it's extremely like to edge... but if it's smaller it might as well. Put another way... it's a guessing game... pulling up a fire spirit to commit arson may be just giving it a free ticket to the amusement park... or might result in a sultry spirit... But generally the problem with spirits is the 'goldilocks zone' force 4 and under are almost too weak to be used... force 5-6 generally usable... force 7+ whoa nellie....

[Draco18s]

bwu?

And I have no idea what you mean by drain.

My "bwu"* is about this part:

So the only bit there I disagree with is TJ's force 4+ (or 5+ depending on how you read it).. always spend edge. (some things a spirit will 'want' to do... such as asking a fire spirit to commit arson). For us, if it's bigger than you are it's extremely like to edge... but if it's smaller it might as well. Put another way... it's a guessing game... pulling up a fire spirit to commit arson may be just giving it a free ticket to the amusement park... or might result in a sultry spirit... But generally the problem with spirits is the 'goldilocks zone' force 4 and under are almost too weak to be used... force 5-6 generally usable... force 7+ whoa nellie....

The other part about drain being equal to 2x hits is something I disagree with but isn't something special about TJ's table.

*"Bwu?" Pronounce it just like it's spelled. It's an interjection of confusion, roughly translating to "but wait, what?"

[Falconer]

No... no idea what 'bwu' is short for.

[Draco18s]

No... no idea what 'bwu' is short for.

It's a noise. Like "huh" "erm" and "meep meep."

*"Bwu?" Pronounce it just like it's spelled. It's an interjection of confusion, roughly translating to "but wait, what?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's one of those things that makes me go "bwu?" at TJ's table. "Over force 4 spend edge" combined with the "drain equal to hits" (rather than the net hits)* makes it near impossible for anyone to summon over about F20 or bind above F10. Not even the supermagicians because their drain stats are hard-capped so low relative to their magic.

*RAW rule that I disagree with.

DO you see what you are saying here Draco18s? Force 20 Sumomning? THAT is a Ludicrous and then some, for almost any game.