Popular Vehicles and group assets, How does your groups dead with this? Options

[Sage2000]

Good evening!

I have been looking for ways of having vehicles in Shadowrun groups.

About group assets:

- According to RAW, is it possible to start the game with a vehicle owned by the entire core group? Can players/characters share resourses before gameplay actually starts?

- I have been wondering about this, as I am very fond of helicopters, but maybe would be too expensive for a starting character.

- Even more important, how much would cost to maintain a helicopter, including fuel? How much would cost the repair it if weapons fire did even moderate damage to it? These questions makes me wonder how much of the groups payment a pilot/rigger/chopper owner would have to claim to be worth it?

- Even using ground, regular, wheeled vehicles, the tab could go skyhigh.

- What kind of group vehicles are popular among runners? I mean, of course every person should have his own ride, as he has a life, but the idea of the entire group going togueder, as a team, full of gear and weapons, discussing the mission; is very iconic and pratical. Like this:

http://www.automopedia.org/wp-content/uplo...ry-machine3.jpg

- Would group funds be the solution? Experiences?

Doubts, doubts...

I know these things would vary from campaign to campaign, but I would love to hear your imput.

[ShadowDragon8685]

- According to RAW, is it possible to start the game with a vehicle owned by the entire core group? Can players/characters share resources before gameplay actually starts?

RAW doesn't make any explicit allowance for this, but nor is it explicitly forbidden. This is up to the GM.

- I have been wondering about this, as I am very fond of helicopters, but maybe would be too expensive for a starting character.

Most of them would be too expensive for even two or three characters to think of owning.

- Even more important, how much would cost to maintain a helicopter, including fuel? How much would cost the repair it if weapons fire did even moderate damage to it? These questions makes me wonder how much of the groups payment a pilot/rigger/chopper owner would have to claim to be worth it?

Rigger 3 made explicit answers to these questions. SR4, to the best of my knowledge, has not. I imagine most groups just pretty much tend to assume fuel expenses come out of Lifestyle, but repairs are another matter.

- Even using ground, regular, wheeled vehicles, the tab could go skyhigh.

- Would group funds be the solution? Experiences?

The group I'm playing in has significant expenses like this - repair of damaged drones/vehicles comes out of the payment before it's divided up. (I imagine that medical expenses would similarly come out of the total funds before they get cashed out.)

[CanRay]

The two most popular vehicles for groups to be in are the GMC Bulldog Stepvan and the Ares RoadMaster (The civilian version of the Ares CityMaster.). And, yes, like the Mystery Machine, it's because you can have a lot of gear/people and no one else is the wiser.

Hell, even if it's not modified for Trolls, one can stretch out (somewhat) in the back.

Other group assets I've seen is a Lifestyle utilized for a base of operations, and my suggestion in Safehouses for a Bolt Hole, although considering the paranoid nature of 'runners, each having an individual one would also be an idea. (It's just that the group one is likely to be more comfortable.).

Otherwise, it's mostly gear that each person uses/cares for individually that I've seen.

[sunnyside]

It existed better in RAW in older editions, but there is something to be said for dropping the price of vehicles via them being used and damaged chinese kockoffs of something decent. In this edition you'd have to houserule for some of that. But the upshot is throwing in disadvantages like gremlins for price reductions.

I've found submersable vehicles play a little better as theyr'e stealth options. Also there are, were, cheap and stealthy glider type things.

Bikes can be fun as they are cheap and get everyone involved.

And a couple times they've had airborn VTOL vehicles that worked for getting them between locations and to runs in remote locations. But they'd keep them out of the firefights.

But generally speaking vehicles are tricky because of their expense, likelyhood of getting shot up, and the tendincy of GMs to make running away on foot pretty easy.

[Mantis]

First, the cost/rules to repair vehicles can be found in Arsenal under Vehicle Repair (pg 104). I don't know why people keep missing this. Secondly, yes Fuel, etc comes out of lifestyle. No need to micro manage your vehicle expenses. Maybe for something like a helicopter you could but by the time you can afford one your lifestyle can probably cover the costs for that too (unless you're a cheap bastard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).
For my games we instituted a team fund taken from pay (10%) which goes towards covering team expenses like group vehicles, drones, repairs and in run costs like bribes and such. This comes off the top before dividing between the survivors. Medical is your own expense. Duck next time. We maintain at least a team shop to store team stuff plus at least one safehouse (put my share into the usual account CanRay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) ), which gets paid out of this team fund.
The most common vehicles have been listed already though the GMC Hermes with it's drone racks makes a nice sub for the older Bulldog (worse handling though).
One of the easiest ways we've found to get vehicles for group use has been character death. You die, we steal your car. Waste not, want not, plus we probably know your passcodes already. Beyond that we will save up the team fund to buy something we really want. Never had a helicopter as they are so hella expensive it just hasn't been feasible. Maybe one day. Mages and levitate make a good substitute in the mean time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One of the easiest ways we've found to get vehicles for group use has been character death. You die, we steal your car. Waste not, want not, plus we probably know your passcodes already. Beyond that we will save up the team fund to buy something we really want. Never had a helicopter as they are so hella expensive it just hasn't been feasible. Maybe one day. Mages and levitate make a good substitute in the mean time.

Go to the scrap yards and rebuild your flying vehicles... If it is good enough for Kaylie, Mal and Wash, it is good enough for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
May take some time and effort, but you can save some money doing it. As long as you actually have someone who can make those repairs.

[sunnyside]

I had to confirm it was actually in there. But that bit I do with Gremlins isn't a house rule, it's actually in the RAW in Arsenal. Actually they gives you a lot of flexibility and discretion there.

If you have a character that starts the game rigger style with repair skills and tools, I'd throw 'em a bone and use the rule for giving them a vehicle at over half off due to starting with heavy damage (requiring time and repairs and maybe some GM discretion fun schenanigans they can't get rid of, though those often give the thing some fun personality).

There can also be a chance for the Face to shine in negotiations, and maybe some work for the Hacker if you're taking advantages of street value modifiers to get the price even lower.

One other thing I tend to allow is the use of the "extra storage" vehicle modification to allow smaller/cheaper vehicles to haul the whole team, usually with some penalites, especially for landing, but that just makes it interesting for the rigger.

All in all I find this is a way to get characters to have fun with vehicles without the tears.

I also find that a Skraacha that is used and abused is not only affordable for a team (say maybe being a fifth of the books cost between being non-functioning when bought, hot, and with some serious flaws) but its speed and the pain in the butt stuff the rigger has to deal with gives it a sort of Serenity/Millenium Falcon flavor that I rather enjoy. It also gives other players a chance to fly and fight when you make the rigger repair something on the fly.

[Mantis]

Good ideas sunnyside. Our players don't usually want used gear but the option is always there, especially for the big ticket items.

[sunnyside]

Good ideas sunnyside. Our players don't usually want used gear but the option is always there, especially for the big ticket items.

Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think big ticket vehicles are the only thing they deliberately get used. And that's just a matter of the price and the chance of loosing the thing. Brewing up a low feature but cheap and high seating VSTOL ultralight was something I let a group do in the past. But that isn't supported so well in current rules, I guess a storage enhanced thing based off the Wasp might be about the closest thing.

The other option I suppose is letting them steal something. However as a GM I like to keep them runnin' as opposed to spending sessions jacking vehicles. So the way I play it is that corps look to their bottom line. Whack the runners that stole a prototype after they've delivered it? You may have just saved your enemy the cash of tying up loose ends. Did they take a chopper? Get that thing back! (The thing may also have control system backdoors/transponders/etc)

But that's just me.

[Mantis]

We've stolen them (choppers) a time or two but always ditch it afterwards with the idea that we probably can't get rid of the RFID tags and close any back doors on the thing before the people we stole it from come looking. Besides, where do hide you an Ares Dragon? Those things are fricking huge.

[CanRay]

We've stolen them (choppers) a time or two but always ditch it afterwards with the idea that we probably can't get rid of the RFID tags and close any back doors on the thing before the people we stole it from come looking. Besides, where do hide you an Ares Dragon? Those things are fricking huge.

The Barrens? There's probably lots of Smuggler hideouts in Hells Kitchen if you're in Seattle.

[Mantis]

There may be but do your characters know about them? They (smuggler hideouts) can't be obvious from the air or else they would be taken out. And if you've stolen the chopper to make an escape you probably didn't plan it that way. So on the fly, your odds of knowing where to stash it and making it there before a SAM or spirit or similar tracks you and leads a squad your way before you can clean the thing is pretty slim. Not impossible but damn hard.
If you have planned it out of course then that changes things dramatically. But they'll still come looking. A chopper is a pretty expensive bit of hardware to just write off.

[toturi]

There may be but do your characters know about them? They (smuggler hideouts) can't be obvious from the air or else they would be taken out. And if you've stolen the chopper to make an escape you probably didn't plan it that way. So on the fly, your odds of knowing where to stash it and making it there before a SAM or spirit or similar tracks you and leads a squad your way before you can clean the thing is pretty slim. Not impossible but damn hard.

That is exactly what those Knowledge skills are for.

[Mantis]

Yeah I know that. The 'Do your characters know about them?' included that as an option. In my mind at least. What, you mean you can't read my mind over the internet? That explains so much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Modular Man]

I've adopted the idea of jacking vehicles for group use, I'll see how well my GM deals with that idea and where he sees issues I might have overlooked. We've had a few rules issues to clarify over that.
It basically comes down to this: Does the GM touch stuff the characters have legitimately bought? As far as I've heard, some don't do that on principle. If said GM does so, then acquiring stuff without payment should be fair game. Appropriate situations included on both occasions, of course. Vehicle gets shot to metal bits? Well, better fire up those hijacker drones I have stashed.

I've been trying to convince the group that we really need a Skytrain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) With a little addition, our group funds could afford that. Then again, new cars, now that we've moved to a new city, would be the first thing to do.

Said group account has been used in the past to pay for big things everybody benefits from, such as in-mission gear (e.g. explosives) or a weapon shop. My character, being the techie (or claims to be), benefits most of the new tools, but will, of course, work on he whole team's toys.

[Mantis]

If a player has modified his ride to be used for shadowrunning then I don't mind taking a swipe at when they use it for shadowrunning. The cost to repair vehicles is quite low (1% of base price/box) and so long as it isn't destroyed they can always fix it up again, just like so long as you aren't killed you get healed to fight again.
For us, vehicle theft has always been a situation/opportunity thing, in that if we need a ride and something is convenient, we'll take it but won't keep it. Especially high end stuff like helicopters. If a job requires the team to have aircraft but the GM has not made it possible to get them then the team is well within rights to refuse the job.
One conceit of the game is that you are generally hired to do jobs you are actually capable of. The exception being when it is a smoke screen designed to fail but generally if you get a job it is because you are the right team for that job.
Forcing the players to bankrupt characters to get gear to do a job is kind of a dick move on the part of the GM as such jobs rarely will cover the cost of the gear.
Mr. J: 'Yeah I need you to fly into the jungle and pick up this guy. Pay is 25,000¥.'
Team: 'Will you provide the aircraft?'
Mr. J: 'Nope. Buy one.'
Team: 'Well then fuck you Mr. Johnson.'

[kzt]

Actually, helicopters (and aircraft in general) are stupid cheap in SR compared to the real world. They also don't cost anything to maintain, when in fact they are huge money and time sinks.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Cheap though they may be compared to reality, they're still heavily expensive compared to the typical payout for a 'run, especially when you consider in the overhead the Runners have to go through (buying mission supplies, paying mission bribes, dividing the take amongst everyone, etcetera.) And I wouldn't even think about trying to do it on the payouts that are in the published adventures, they're just bonkers.


That said, I've had a look through all the sourcebooks available to me. If you want a group whirlibird, I have got the devil's bargain for you:

The Nissan Hound, as found on Page 30 of the Runner's Black Book. The price is so low that I'm absolutely sure it's a misprint, especially compared to what you get for it: a top-of-the-line helicopter transport/gunship, ala a modern-day Black Hawk or Pave Low, or yesterday's UH-1. It has VTOL operations (obviously), Lock-On Countermeasures, 4 weapon mounts; two internal, flexible and manned, two external, fixed, and remote controlled. It handles pretty good, the speed is admittedly not great (but that's why they invented vehicle mods), it has Body and Armor enough to survive most of the shit Shadowrunners get into, availability is only 13R, and the price-tag is a mind-numbingly cheap 265,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

If that price-tag isn't a misprint, then clearly Nissan is producing these and dumping them on the gray and shadow markets at a loss to enable plausible deniability when Imperial Japanese Marines pull off a shadow op, because the nearest analogue I can find in size and function is the DocWagon CRT out of Arsenal, which has two Large Drone Racks, 2 Valkyrie Modules, only one weapon mount, handles much more poorly, is admittedly faster and has better body but worse armor, is Availability 20R and has a cost of 1,310,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Mantis]

Ya think they forgot a 0 in there somewhere ShadowDragon? Though I actually like your alternate explanation better.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Yeah, it seems likely they forgot a zero and an apostrophe somewhere. Still, that's the book as it's written, and in the absence of eratta, that's the book as it's played.


And hell, my explanation makes pretty damn good sense, doesn't it?

[Shortstraw]

Also I like the hound and if no one mentions the price they won't be tempted to change it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sage2000]

Thank you all for the answers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

I will take a look at the suggestions.

If I underestand, there is no rule for starting a game with a group asset, but that could be house-ruled with no serious imbalances.

I agree that the helicopters are cheap compared to "real life", but I believe they were put there to be used (some of them, anyway). Probably SR4 assumes that somethings went cheaper in time. And let's face it: how much would a surgery that allows you to see in the dark costs today? How much would be to add stuff to your muscles and bones today? Could one of those procedures be in the same price range as good gun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) So if we are not doing "reality checks" on these, its fair not to do to vehicles as well.

Actually, as a side note, if you fellows knew how much we pay for a basic car in Brazil you would freak out...its very expensive, compared to other countries.

I do miss more helicopters and other aircraft in the price range for runners in the official publications. I underestand that the need for stats of nuclear submarines are there, so the GM can use them if needed, but cmon! We buy a book we can effectively use 15-20%?

I will take a closer look at GMC Bulldog and Ares RoadMaster (this one seems less discrete, but maybe it could be disguised as an armored car?). The GMC Hermes Van looks a little slow and overpriced, but by the description it would be a very discreet Mystery Machine.

Regarding helicopters, the only real option I can see for a flying team vehicle is the Huges Stallion. Although I am wandering about a DocWagon chopter, would be a great disguise.

[KarmaInferno]

An Ares Air Supply might be able to transport one or two runners, but they would probably have to dress warmly and carry their own breathing gear. Flying in an unpressurized cargo compartment isn't comfortable.



-k

[CanRay]

An Ares Air Supply might be able to transport one or two runners, but they would probably have to dress warmly and carry their own breathing gear. Flying in an unpressurized cargo compartment isn't comfortable.

-k

"Whose idea was this?" "Mungo's." "Figures, he can't fit in one of these." "He wanted to ride it 'like a horsie' he said." "That also figures for Mungo."

[KarmaInferno]

At this point Mungo really needs to show up in 5th edition as an NPC, even if it's only as "that guy" other runners have stories about.





-k