[X] My Assistant

[Manunancy]

This would mean that among other things all drugs could be legally obtained. This is just as ridiculous as the bone lacing/ bone density augmentation thing

On thing to keep in mind is that a 'restricted' rating might not be as liberal as it looks - basicalyy it means 'can get a permit if you show a legitimate need' - which isn't exactly eay for stuff like K-10 or similarly nasty stuff. And there's also probably a SIN check that's a wee bit more thorough than your random street control one.

[Dakka Dakka]

On thing to keep in mind is that a 'restricted' rating might not be as liberal as it looks - basicalyy it means 'can get a permit if you show a legitimate need' - which isn't exactly eay for stuff like K-10 or similarly nasty stuff. And there's also probably a SIN check that's a wee bit more thorough than your random street control one.

How easy it is to be granted a permit legally is irrelevant for most shadowrunners. They will most likely just get a fake license. Those are equally easy to obtain whether it is a fishing license or a license for an AR with Grenade Launcher (Colt M22A3). There is no indication in the rules whether LEOs will use different verification tools depending on the restricted item. While LEOs probably won't check the fishing license and will be most certainly check the license for the Colt (do't forget to pack only non-lehtal grenades, the others are forbidden), if your fake credential check out, that's that.

[Halinn]

(don't forget to pack only non-lethal grenades, the others are forbidden)

And Pepper Punch gas grenades aren't even restricted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Exactly. Depending on the job I can see this as a somewhat reasonable piece of equipment for a bodyguard/operative of a private military company.

[Manunancy]

How easy it is to be granted a permit legally is irrelevant for most shadowrunners. They will most likely just get a fake license. Those are equally easy to obtain whether it is a fishing license or a license for an AR with Grenade Launcher (Colt M22A3). There is no indication in the rules whether LEOs will use different verification tools depending on the restricted item. While LEOs probably won't check the fishing license and will be most certainly check the license for the Colt (do't forget to pack only non-lehtal grenades, the others are forbidden), if your fake credential check out, that's that.

Depending on what the thing is and what your other papers say, they may smell somehting fishy - a license for a grenade launcher might pass, but if your officialy someone who has no use for a grenade launcher odds are a cop will find it odd. And even if he don't arrest you, it's very likely they're going to flag you as potential trouble and pas the word to other cops and/or get a surveillane drone keeping an eye on you.

And in my opinion a cop may very well raise the bar on his check : it's as simple as transmitting the SIN or permits his onboard scan finds kosher to the home office and asking the to get a closer look at it (technicaly increasing the dice pool for spotting the fake)

[Dakka Dakka]

Depending on what the thing is and what your other papers say, they may smell somehting fishy - a license for a grenade launcher might pass, but if your officialy someone who has no use for a grenade launcher odds are a cop will find it odd. And even if he don't arrest you, it's very likely they're going to flag you as potential trouble and pas the word to other cops and/or get a surveillane drone keeping an eye on you.

Handling it this way will probably make a more credible gameworld, but since no such thing is mentioned in the rules you should tell the players that this is the case and how their characters can judge which items will fall under tighter scrutiny. It is nor always as obvious as the fishing license vs the (probably) only legal grenade launcher.

And in my opinion a cop may very well raise the bar on his check : it's as simple as transmitting the SIN or permits his onboard scan finds kosher to the home office and asking the to get a closer look at it (technicaly increasing the dice pool for spotting the fake)

The verification of a SIN or license is not a Perception check, or are you referring to the dicepool modifier the GMcan arbitrarily add to any dice pool?

[Jaid]

The verification of a SIN or license is not a Perception check, or are you referring to the dicepool modifier the GMcan arbitrarily add to any dice pool?

i believe he's saying that instead of using the portable (and most likely low rating) scanner built into the patrol vehicle, for something as significant as a grenade launcher the request will be sent in to head office where they most likely have a much more thorough scanning procedure available (ie a higher rating device). because whether or not your grenade launcher is actually legal is both more important and not as frequent of a thing to check... if you test every single fishing license that way, head office would get swamped, comparatively speaking. if you only test grenade launchers and other heavy weaponry, well, i don't think anyone would blame you for wanting to make sure the guy driving around town with a grenade launcher in the trunk really is allowed to do that.

[Dakka Dakka]

It is true that LEOs will check a potentially dangerous item more thoroughly than something they themselves probably don't care at all about. But the aforementioned procedures makes many assumptions:
- The LEO only has a low rating scanner in the patrol car
- there are higher rating scanners available but cannot deal with the potential workload
- The LEO or his squad car is not connected to the higher rating device anyways

None of those are actually in the rules and at least the last one does not make much sense due to the wireless matrix. So you should tell your players beforehand how your gameworld works.

In such extreme cases as fishing license vs grenade launcher this is pretty obvious but are you subjected to a higher level of scrutiny if you are caught with a headjammer instead of a lockpick set?

[Manunancy]

i believe he's saying that instead of using the portable (and most likely low rating) scanner built into the patrol vehicle, for something as significant as a grenade launcher the request will be sent in to head office where they most likely have a much more thorough scanning procedure available (ie a higher rating device). because whether or not your grenade launcher is actually legal is both more important and not as frequent of a thing to check... if you test every single fishing license that way, head office would get swamped, comparatively speaking. if you only test grenade launchers and other heavy weaponry, well, i don't think anyone would blame you for wanting to make sure the guy driving around town with a grenade launcher in the trunk really is allowed to do that.

Yes, that what I meant - fluff wise than would probably translate as a larger database, more processing power to cross-check thngs and probably a wider access to external databases from the harder to crack head office computer system.

I"ve had a quick look at the rules and they mention pitting the ID's rating against the verfying device's rating, but I didn't see what said verification rating is - but it's a safe bet there are different ratings. Which means calling home for running an ID through a better system a fairly logical move if something seems suspicious enough that the lower rating sytem's approval seems fishy. Fake SINs and licenses have been around just about as long as the legit ones, I'd expect a cop to be aware that his veryfing system can be fooled.

Oh and if you also refer to the increased surveillance level, that seems like just plain common sense that if a cop spot someone carrying gear that spells 'trouble' he'll get that person under increased surveillance. Just like your average shopping mart guard will tend to get a closer look to a scruffy ork in a two-size too big hoodie than a prim and proper elderly lady shuffling on a cane.

[Jaid]

In such extreme cases as fishing license vs grenade launcher this is pretty obvious but are you subjected to a higher level of scrutiny if you are caught with a headjammer instead of a lockpick set?

you probably should be subjected to a higher level of scrutiny for a headjammer vs a lockpick set, actually.

for one thing, mechanical locks are mostly obsolete in the 6th world, and having a set of picks is more of a curiosity than anything (unless you're in the barrens or something like that, but if you're in the barrens you're already presumed to guilty no matter what you have). but, more importantly, you can use a lockpick set in a completely harmless manner; you can have locks at home that you use them on, for example.

in contrast, a headjammer is pretty much only useful for abducting people who have built-in commlinks or who are technomancers. that's the sort of thing that tends to be not allowed in most places.

[Dakka Dakka]

Well you could also argue, that nobody needs lockpicks for their own locks, so there is very little legitimate use. I wanted to say replace the lockpicks with a maglock sequencer, to compare the headjammer to a less obsolete item, but that thing is forbidden?! So if you ever lose your passkey, the door has to be broken down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

On the other hand, the technomancer could have the headjammer to get rid of the voices in his head, or could be given out to have an unmonitored conversation. There is no need to force it onto someone.

[Jaid]

technomancers can shut down their wireless whenever they feel like it.

(generally speaking though, they don't feel like it, because wired to the matrix is more or less their natural state once they become technomancers).

and no, you don't have to have your door broken down... you call up your security company, verify who you are, and they'll open it, or you have the locksmith hack it. hacking programs are merely restricted, so you're good to go.

(funny thing: BTL chip: forbidden. rating 6 black hammer: nah, that's totally legit, as long as you've got permission to own a piece of software explicitly designed to melt people's brains into a puddle of goo. just so long as you don't have any of those horrible BTLs, though.

honestly, i think the real problem is that the current system doesn't have enough granularity (there really needs to be a forbidden/serious crime vs forbidden/minor crime, for example, so that BTLs are not as bad as gamma-scopolamine or seven-7), and that in some cases things are clearly assigned to the wrong end of the spectrum (like stealth rope... is there some pressing reason that disappearing rope needs to be so severely regulated?)

[Dakka Dakka]

and no, you don't have to have your door broken down... you call up your security company, verify who you are, and they'll open it, or you have the locksmith hack it. hacking programs are merely restricted, so you're good to go.

The problem is is that a fake SIN with complete history can be created in under two days for the small fee of rating * 1000¥, and that SIN is good until discovered as a fake, but you cannot fake the credentials of an employee in a locksmithing company (or whatever a company dealing with maglocks is called) allowing you to walk around with a sequencer.

honestly, i think the real problem is that the current system doesn't have enough granularity (there really needs to be a forbidden/serious crime vs forbidden/minor crime, for example, so that BTLs are not as bad as gamma-scopolamine or seven-7),

I agree, but until there are there is no reason for the players to assume that restricted item A will be handled differently than restricted item B, unless the GM tells them. This is something that the characters would know about their world. The players should know as well to plausibly roleplay their behavior.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem is is that a fake SIN with complete history can be created in under two days for the small fee of rating * 1000¥, and that SIN is good until discovered as a fake, but you cannot fake the credentials of an employee in a locksmithing company (or whatever a company dealing with maglocks is called) allowing you to walk around with a sequencer.

Why ever not?

[Dakka Dakka]

Because there are no fake licenses for forbidden items, nor are there any special bonuses (like being allowed to use forbidden items) if your fake history includes a job at a company that would be allowed to own and use such items and

A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don’t get caught.

If you could make fake documentation allowing you to possess and possibly use forbidden items, the whole Forbidden tag is kind of pointless as most shadowrunners would just get that kind of documentation instead of a fake license if they wanted to have forbidden items.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because there are no fake licenses for forbidden items, nor are there any special bonuses (like being allowed to use forbidden items) if your fake history includes a job at a company that would be allowed to own and use such items. If you could make fake documentation allowing you to possess and possibly use forbidden items, the whole Forbidden tag is kind of pointless as most shadowrunners would just get that kind of documentation instead of a fake license if they wanted to have forbidden items.

No, it means that the ILLEGAL Fake Business Licenses will cover Forbidden Items, as long as the Licenses are not broken. Otherwise LEGITIMATE Businesses could not own/use them either. It is as simple as that. *shrug*

See, you CAN make a FAKE Business License that would allow it, it is just NOT LEGAL, Per your very own Quote. A Business is not a Private Individual.

[Dakka Dakka]

No, it means that the ILLEGAL Fake Business Licenses will cover Forbidden Items, as long as the Licenses are not broken. Otherwise LEGITIMATE Businesses could not own/use them either. It is as simple as that. *shrug*

See, you CAN make a FAKE Business License that would allow it, it is just NOT LEGAL, Per your very own Quote. A Business is not a Private Individual.

I think you did not read the rule I quoted correctly. A real or fake employee of a real or fake business is still a private person. As such he is not allowed to transport or use such an item. The writers even emphasize this by the sentence "Don't get caught" and not "Don't get caught unless you have documentation saying that you are allowed to use it as an employee or member of some legal entity that has that right."
There is no exception that allows the usage by a natural person in the execution of his job or duty. Yes that means that legitimate businesses cannot give access to illegal items to their employees.
To allow such would be a houserule. Houserules need to be explained to the players.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you did not read the rule I quoted correctly. A real or fake employee of a real or fake business is still a private person. As such he is not allowed to transport or use such an item. The writers even emphasize this by the sentence "Don't get caught" and not "Don't get caught unless you have documentation saying that you are allowed to use it as an employee or member of some legal entity that has that right."
There is no exception that allows the usage by a natural person in the execution of his job or duty. Yes that means that legitimate businesses cannot give access to illegal items to their employees.
To allow such would be a houserule. Houserules need to be explained to the players.

I read it just fine.

Again, if you have documentation that you are a representative of a Company that is allowed to utilize Forbidden tech, then you are no longer a private individual. You are reading too much into it. A Fake consultant for a Fake Security Firm could have the tech, as long as his Documentation passed verification. If not, then he is Caught, and will suffer the consequences.

There is absolutely no difference in the documentation other than one being fake and the other being legitimate. That is why there is a Rating on the Fake (Business) License. If it passes, you are legitimate and are okay to use such forbidden tech. A Legitimate Business has no check to fail, as it will ALWAYS pass.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

I read it just fine.

Again, if you have documentation that you are a representative of a Company that is allowed to utilize Forbidden tech, then you are no longer a private individual. You are reading too much into it. A Fake consultant for a Fake Security Firm could have the tech, as long as his Documentation passed verification. If not, then he is Caught, and will suffer the consequences.

There is absolutely no difference in the documentation other than one being fake and the other being legitimate. That is why there is a Rating on the Fake (Business) License. If it passes, you are legitimate and are okay to use such forbidden tech. A Legitimate Business has no check to fail, as it will ALWAYS pass.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you are saying that there are no really forbidden items, just items that require a different kind of license [license(appropriate business) instead of license(restricted item)]. Drug dealers rejoice. I agree that is what it should be, unless you want to introduce a fourth category, but that is not what the rules say.

[Jaid]

I agree, but until there are there is no reason for the players to assume that restricted item A will be handled differently than restricted item B, unless the GM tells them. This is something that the characters would know about their world. The players should know as well to plausibly roleplay their behavior.

there is plenty of reason to believe that an ingram smartgun X will be treated differently from a hunting rifle. there is even more reason to believe that it will be treated differently from a truckload of commercial explosives or a cyberware scanner built into your car's frame. they are used for different things, and there are varying levels of threat and plausibility involved... a hunting rifle is not going to be used to fill a room with lead, generally speaking, and neither the hunting rifle nor the ingram pose as much of a threat as a truckload of commercial explosives, while a cyberware scanner poses very little actual threat to anyone in and of itself.

you should expect to need a different kind of cover story, and you should expect different reactions from people in general, because they are different things with different potential levels of threat involved.

the game is not designed to think for you. a cop may not even care to check the cyberware scanner unless he's just looking to arrest you for something, whereas if confronted with a truckload of commercial explosives, they're likely to be very paranoid about it unless they are going into a demolition site of some kind, because that's how humans area. to treat everything the same would be the illogical expectation.

you, as a (presumably) real live human will react differently to illegal drugs as compared to, say, illegal firearms, simply because one poses a much greater threat to your safety. the game doesn't tell you that, because as a (presumably) real live human, you should already have some insight into how a real live human thinks.

[Dakka Dakka]

OK, "in the same way" may have been the wrong expression. What I meant was that how different items are treated differently will differ from GM to GM and from portrayed region to portrayed region. (Pink Mohawk vs. Mirrorshades and for example cannabis in the Netherlands or Indonesia of today, who knows what's the case in 2070) Such information is available to the characters but not in the rulebooks. It should be made available to the players to react accordingly.

Of course the LEO is free to not check the credentials or the PC can con him into not checking, but I don't see why the LEO would not always use the best verification system available. Making the highest ratings (which possibly are in a precinct) inaccessible in the field sounds like an ill-conceived houserule given that the LEO most likely is in constant contact with the precinct through the matrix.

[Wakshaani]

So you are saying that there are no really forbidden items, just items that require a different kind of license [license(appropriate business) instead of license(restricted item)]. Drug dealers rejoice. I agree that is what it should be, unless you want to introduce a fourth category, but that is not what the rules say.

Yeah, FOrbidden means "You can't have this."

There are likely exceptions, but they're tightly controlled... like teh CDC has Smallpox, but they can't take a sample and go strolling around Atlanta.

As for drugs? Illegal under UCAS law, but a Mega or three allows them. Aztechnology allows pretty much ANYTHING, for example, while Horizon allows almost as much. Stay on their territory and you can probably get a license to Brainbend. Just don't expect to jander off-campus and not be arrested. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

OK, "in the same way" may have been the wrong expression. What I meant was that how different items are treated differently will differ from GM to GM and from portrayed region to portrayed region. (Pink Mohawk vs. Mirrorshades and for example cannabis in the Netherlands or Indonesia of today, who knows what's the case in 2070) Such information is available to the characters but not in the rulebooks. It should be made available to the players to react accordingly.

Of course the LEO is free to not check the credentials or the PC can con him into not checking, but I don't see why the LEO would not always use the best verification system available. Making the highest ratings (which possibly are in a precinct) inaccessible in the field sounds like an ill-conceived houserule given that the LEO most likely is in constant contact with the precinct through the matrix.

well, you might not use a higher rating scanner for the simple reason that extensive database checks use up resources. i mean, no matrix skill is involved on the part of the user, so it's probably something roughly equivalent to a dedicated agent performing the check. it most likely can only take orders from one source at a time. and most likely, it costs money, and the security company are trying to avoid spending money unless absolutely necessary. smaller companies probably actually rent access to a higher rating verification system on a per-use basis rather than maintaining their own.

so, you use a cheap system as much as possible. if a few criminals get away with carrying around something minor, no big deal. the heavy duty in-depth searches probably have a waiting list of at least a few seconds on them... if you used them for literally everything, that waiting time would probably be hours if not more. and you can't pull someone over for 5 hours to check if their license is valid and expect to not hear back about it.

so, they'll keep the bare minimum for what they need when it's important. if it isn't important, you don't use the expensive machine.

just like every workplace *could* have absolute top-of-the-line computers, photocopiers, scanners, etc, and yet i bet if you go through most workplaces you'll find decades-old printers, fax machines, etc being used far more often. why? because they're not going to let so much as a single penny be spent unless they absolutely *have* to.

[Dakka Dakka]

well, you might not use a higher rating scanner for the simple reason that extensive database checks use up resources. i mean, no matrix skill is involved on the part of the user, so it's probably something roughly equivalent to a dedicated agent performing the check. it most likely can only take orders from one source at a time. and most likely, it costs money, and the security company are trying to avoid spending money unless absolutely necessary. smaller companies probably actually rent access to a higher rating verification system on a per-use basis rather than maintaining their own.

Again those are assumptions not backed up or contradicted by RAW. AFAIK matrix access is bought on a monthly basis not based on actual traffic and running more programs on a node only decreases its response rating, which is prettys irrelevant except for matrix initiative. I see no reason there not to use the node with the best verification system

so, you use a cheap system as much as possible. if a few criminals get away with carrying around something minor, no big deal. the heavy duty in-depth searches probably have a waiting list of at least a few seconds on them... if you used them for literally everything, that waiting time would probably be hours if not more. and you can't pull someone over for 5 hours to check if their license is valid and expect to not hear back about it.

so, they'll keep the bare minimum for what they need when it's important. if it isn't important, you don't use the expensive machine.

This is true, but I can find no indication in the rules that using a weaker system actually is significantly quicker or cheaper.

just like every workplace *could* have absolute top-of-the-line computers, photocopiers, scanners, etc, and yet i bet if you go through most workplaces you'll find decades-old printers, fax machines, etc being used far more often. why? because they're not going to let so much as a single penny be spent unless they absolutely *have* to.

Also true, but this creates a different scenario. If the LEO does not have access to a higher rating verification system, he won't use it. the Initial scenario was that he had access to both systems but used the weaker one because that was supposedly cheaper.

[Jaid]

you can have whatever node you want. somewhere in that node is an icon. you feed that icon information, and it does a search for you and spits out the response. searching a database is an action; it takes time.

so, you either invest the resources to have more of those higher rating searches, or you don't. each one you invest in can handle a certain amount of traffic. to cut down on costs, it only makes sense to use appropriate tools for the appropriate situation, and have access to the more powerful tools, with the understanding that you don't just use them all the time or it becomes cheaper to fire you and replace you with someone that doesn't put an excessive amount of strain on the company's high-end resources when most of the time, low-end software and hardware will do the job just fine.

just because there are no rules in the book defining how a given node will deal with hundreds of personas all running traffic through it at once, doesn't mean there's no effect. it costs money to buy the hardware, money to buy the software, and money to pay people to keep the hardware and software playing nice with everything else. in general, the better the results you want, the more you have to spend on it.

why would they need to tell us that companies don't always buy an unlimited supply of the absolute best hardware and software? that should be self-evident. that's how it is in real life, and it doesn't need rules to reflect it, because in some cases, the company *will* have that for all intents and purposes.

why would they need to tell us that you purchase one-time access to resources? it's already here today, right now. if you need a car for one day, you don't go to the dealership and ask to buy a car, then sell it back to them the next day; you go rent one. same deal with anything else (in fact, it's getting increasingly common now that we've got the internet to connect people more easily... there are services that will help you manage communal resources, or that will help you rent a resource that you are not currently using, etc). if you're a small security company, and you don't have the resources to invest in having a massive database maintained and organized, nor the resources to buy the hardware and software, you make a deal with lone star or knight errant or someone else and you pay them on those occasions when you need the high end security check. and you don't use that deal unless you feel the situation calls for it, because it costs money every time you send the request.