Panther Assault Cannons have no recoil! ....wait, what? Options

[tasti man LH]

So, I'm planning a run for my PCs, in which they will be infiltrating/storming a farmhouse that's filled with a cell of militant TerraFirst! members.

Very, very militant...so militant, that one of them actually is packing a Panther Assault Cannon (4th edition version)!

Now, reading up on the fluff of this bad boy, I get presented with the idea that this is the go-to weapon for all heavy-weapons specialist runners. And that the fluff mentions the thing having a hell of a recoil. Which, you know, should be expected from a gun that's supposed to deliver the same firepower as main gun on small tanks.

In 4th, they state that all heavy weapons' uncompensated recoil gets doubled. The problem is that the Panther Assault Cannon fires in Single-Shot only.....and Single Shot weapons typically have no recoil. At all. Meaning that in-game, firing a Panther Assault Cannon incurs no recoil penalty (if we were to exclude the numerous recoil compensators).

...

...am I missing something?

I find it hard to believe that what's essentially a portable tank cannon to have NO recoil. I can't find any special note or rules regarding specifically just assault cannons (at least in Core), and I even went back to peek through at the old Street Samurai Catalog to see if that Panther has any special notes...and nothing.

I feel like I'm not seeing something important but I dunno...I'd rather not just slap an arbitrary recoil penalty on the gun and call it a day.

Help, please?

EDIT: Also, the enemy in question that wields the assault cannon may or may not have the Increase Reflexes spell.

[bannockburn]

Recoil affects everything beyond the first shot. As there is no second shot in a single phase, the recoil is there and it's massive*, but doesn't have any crunch impact at all.
Just fluff.

*massive means: The same as ... a shotgun. Or a LMG. Or any other heavy weapon. Crunchwise, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

You can mod a Panther to be FA if you really want - at which point, the recoil most certainly matters.

It's easier to just mod to SA fire and add a single point of RC, though. Oh, and there's no rule saying an assault cannon can't use a Silencer either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Meanwhile, the crazy people who think that High-Powered chambering inflicts a -2 dice penalty on each and every shot that can't be compensated for by recoil compensators seem to think that it makes sense for a single round fired from a Holdout Pistol chambered for High-Powered rounds to suffer the exact same penalty as two rounds fired from an SA Assault Cannon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

You cannot. The Firing Selection Change is available to any gun that does not have an unusual loading mechanism or uses exotic ammo. As assault cannons all use exotic ammo (they have their own special "Assault Cannon" entry in the ammo list), they cannot be so modded.

[Umidori]

I can easily see that contested. Would you call flechette ammo exotic? There are weapons that can ONLY fire flechettes, after all.

There's nothing inherently unusual about the loading mechanism or the ammo of an assault cannon - it's just really big ammo. The limitation is intended to apply to things that are clearly not normal firearms, like the Screech Rifle or Lasers, things where you aren't chambering a physical round of ammunition into an ordinary firearm.

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

That's what I've thought too, but that's the same basis that I had thrown at me when mentioning making an assault cannon FA.

And as far as flechette ammo being exotic, actually, no, I wouldn't call it exotic.

[NetWraith]

I've had this problem for a while... I solved it by having a knock down test for the firer based on the damage resisted by body. Modified by bracing and such.

[NetWraith]

EDIT:: Double post

This post has been edited by NetWraith: Feb 20 2013, 02:07 AM

[Umidori]

Had what problem? Players running around with FA Assault Cannons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's not the sort of problem that should be coming up commonly. For one thing, they're awfully big, noisy, and attention grabbing, so they shouldn't crop up too terribly often. For another thing, remember that anything the players and their characters abuse can and should be adopted by the enemy. Full Auto Assault Cannons are only fun and laughs until the runners are staring down the wrong end of one.

~Umi

[tasti man LH]

I might go with resisting Knockdown as suggested by NetWraith.

I do realize that the thing with Single Shot weapons is that their recoil is supposedly so bad, that the can't be fire again in the same action phase.

The reason why I bring all of this up (which I think I should have mentioned in the OP...I'll get to that after I finish this post) is because the guy that's wielding it, I'm playing around with the idea of giving him the Increase Reflexes spell..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

(...too evil? lol)

[SpellBinder]

Should take a look at one of my favorite wish-list weapons, the Ares Thunderstruck (Arsenal, page 30).

Also in Arsenal, page 162, is an advanced combat rule Carrying Heavy Weapons. Aside from requiring a Body & Strength of 8 (each), the firer takes half the weapon's power (round down) as Stun damage, and can be knocked down. That is, of course, if you're not using something like a gyro stabilization unit.

[KarmaInferno]

That's what I've thought too, but that's the same basis that I had thrown at me when mentioning making an assault cannon FA.

And as far as flechette ammo being exotic, actually, no, I wouldn't call it exotic.

"Exotic" is like musket balls or arrows or rockets. Or ghoul midgets.

Assault cannon rounds are just gigantic bullets.




-k

[SpellBinder]

Here's the start of a similar discussion from a long while ago on the subject of assault cannon rounds being exotic or not: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1053364

General consensus, as I understood it, assault cannon rounds qualify as exotic ammo.

[Umidori]

The "general" consensus in that thread seems to mostly consist of Yerameyahu, so I'd call it more a "specific" consensus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That said, why exactly are you against Firing Selection Change on assault cannons? Are modded assault cannons honestly a problem for you? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

For example, compare to sniper rifles. Why is it cool to have a FA modded Barret Model 121 (9P, -4AP, 14c), but a FA modded Panther XXL (10P, -5AP, 15c) is off-limits? Especially when the sniper rifle is not only smaller, cheaper, more available, and can use EX-Explosive Rounds to match the Panther's damage and armor penetration, BUT it also suffers half as much uncompensated recoil as the Panther AND uses the very common Longarms skill instead of the highly rare Heavy Weapons skill?

What rational, reasonable complaint do you guys have about a FA modded Assault Cannon? Clearly it's not imbalanced or overpowered compared to other available options - quite the opposite, really. So I can only assume you're just being pedantic and getting hung up on the word "exotic" without having any practical reason for doing so.

It's not like we're trying to rapid-fire surface-to-air rockets or compressed-air-launched dildos or 18th century naval cannons and cannonballs. Assault cannons fire normal firearm ammunition, with a bullet, a casing, propellant, and a primer that is either detonated by impact or electrical spark. They are chambered exactly like smaller bullets. They fit in a clip (yes, we know, technically a magazine) just like smaller bullets. In every respect except for size, they are normal bullets. They should not qualify in any way as "exotic" ammunition.

~Umi

[Mantis]

I think the 'exotic' part comes from these quotes.

Assault Cannon Rounds: These highly stable explosive rounds are made of HDX superplast compound. (pg 323 SR4A)

Panther XXL: This enormous assault cannon fires special ammunition common to the primary weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a smartgun system. (pg 320 SR4A)
Emphasis mine.

That said, I agree with you on modding the weapon. It isn't such a big deal to make this thing full auto since you can't pack that much recoil comp into it anyway (not a machine gun so no gas vent for you) and FA mod uses up a lot of your mod slots. Your only real option is the gyro mount and if you are pulling all this out in a gun fight then you better need it. You can bet the cops with respond with extreme prejudice if you do.

[Stingray]

Should take a look at one of my favorite wish-list weapons, the Ares Thunderstruck (Arsenal, page 30).

Also in Arsenal, page 162, is an advanced combat rule Carrying Heavy Weapons. Aside from requiring a Body & Strength of 8 (each), the firer takes half the weapon's power (round down) as Stun damage, and can be knocked down. That is, of course, if you're not using something like a gyro stabilization unit.

..by accepting that rule in game, humans and elves can say tear-jerking goodbye to Ares Alpha
due it's under-barrel Grenade launcher. (wo using gyrostabilization, or being Adepts boosting attributes...)

[SpellBinder]

Yet another example of where the rules aren't clear.

You could if you go on the train of thought that all weapons that use the Heavy Weapons skill are the heavy weapons spoke about in that rule. If so, then even the compact ArmTech MGL-6, a pistol sized weapon that uses the Heavy Weapons skill and shoots mini-grenades, is out of the question for the smaller metatypes.

I'd expect the intent was towards machineguns and assault cannons and weapons that are frequently used with things like bi-pods, tri-pods, and the sort. Even present day, people can use the single shot M203 40mm grenade launcher on the M-16 without getting knocked on their ass. A weapon that I figure is very similar to the underbarrel grenade launcher on the Ares Alpha you mention, save that the Ares Alpha gets a six round magazine.

[Stingray]

..personally i suspect that rule is left-over from SR3 ed, (vaguely remember) where is actually cyberware (Dermal sheath?? + high level Muscle replacement??) that
make it possible the humans and elves have 8 Bod & 8 Str..

[Stahlseele]

SR3 had a bit more bite in the Recoil for the PAC:
9l Stun Damage if you fire it without having at least body and STR 9 i think.

[Tanegar]

compressed-air-launched dildos

8S, AP- vs Impact armor, Composure test (3) or the target spends a whole combat turn doing the heebie-jeebie dance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

That said, I agree with you on modding the weapon. It isn't such a big deal to make this thing full auto since you can't pack that much recoil comp into it anyway (not a machine gun so no gas vent for you) and FA mod uses up a lot of your mod slots. Your only real option is the gyro mount and if you are pulling all this out in a gun fight then you better need it. You can bet the cops with respond with extreme prejudice if you do.

If someone shows up at your table with a character with a Full Auto Panther Assault Cannon, take the advice of Mirikon from the other forum. Smack them with a phone book.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, doing that is stupid.
He should go for a battery of missle launchers.

[Umidori]

If someone shows up at my table with a Full Auto Panther Assault Cannon, I'll raise an eyebrow, check their Heavy Weapons skill, and ask them why they have it and what they plan to use it for. If they answer in a way that leaves me doubtful as to their sound judgement, I'll ask them to reconsider. If they persist, only then will I involve my good friend Mr. Telecom.

~Umi

[Mantis]

Sound advice for many of the things players bring to the table. Asking them about it forces them to think about and justify the choice which can lead them to rethink the choice, all without the GM having to say no.

[SpellBinder]

Hopefully. I knew a guy who would've said he'd want it for the noise it'd make when he fired it.

This is also the same kind of guy who'd always say "I dodge." during a D&D session whenever his character was declared a target of an attack.