[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

@ Umidori

He said that it is silly to allow everything which is not directly banned in the rules. Which is kind of a no-brainer afterall.

He did at no point say: Ignore the rules or add to the rules if you see it fit.

There is a huge differance here.

If you argue about any RPG you should stay with the rules and not use real world arguments. The only point where you can use the real world arguement is at the end. The rules technically allow it, but it is totally silly, so the rules are probably badly worded. Thats the only point.

Why should you not use real world arguments in the middle of the discussion? Because you leave the field eventually.
Well, since I do not have a better example, lets take rounding errors.

Lets say after each step the numbers are rounded to full numbers.
If you get to choose the steps were you just use the "full-number", you can alter pretty much everything to the point you need it. (Having enough steps)
Now, the approximaition of reality found in the rules are pritty big, so there are a lot of rounding errors to be found. Just start with recoil. Recoil in general does not matter in single shot weapons.

[Umidori]

He JUST said that arrows do not have feathers. Are you trying to tell me he was being sarcastic and that I missed it? Because from where I'm standing he sounded like he was being a hypocritical imbecile. I really do hope he was just being sarcastic, because I'd rather not actually think that about the fellow.

I'm not at all contesting your point about not allowing things that are "totally silly". Indeed, just the opposite, which is why I was so angry at Stahl. He seemed to have made that exact point, and then turned around and ignored it completely.

What I am contesting is the reasoning people are using for deeming AC rounds "exotic". I find it woefully inadequate.

There is nothing "totally silly" about allowing an Assault Cannon to be modded for Full Auto Fire. It is not absurd in the least. To compare it to Trolls flying and Arrows lacking feathers and not using the archery skill is baffling at best, and maliciously disingenious at worst. I have demonstrated - without any kind of direct contention whatsoever! - numerous points of evidence which reinforce this notion, and which suggest that AC rounds are not exotic.

Moreover, the only opposing evidence to be offered up is laughable - a wild, unprecedented extrapolation from the chosen style of formatting of the Gear Listing entries!

My opponents have shown every callous disregard for the clear and obvious intentions of the rules. There is no doubt in my mind, not the slightest shred of possibility, that AC rounds are not exotic - that they were never meant to be exotic, and that if you asked the minds behind the Shadowrun system themselves, they would without hesitation say "No, of course they aren't exotic! That'd be silly!".

~Umi

[Irion]

@Umidori
The point is about "whats in the rules". And the rules make no point about feathers.

You are going back an forth. This way you can justify ANY interpretation.
The rules don't fit your desired outcome, argue real world.
Real world and the rules don't fit argue, that it is a game.

I'm not at all contesting your point about not allowing things that are "totally silly". Indeed, just the opposite, which is why I was so angry at Stahl. He seemed to have made that exact point, and then turned around and ignored it completely.

And I am saying to you, that he did not.

It is he differance between the way to get somewhere and the result.

If you strictly follow the rules you get to ask yourself if the result is silly. At the end.

Rules are silly all the time, if you take a closer look. The recoil rules? Totally silly. Even the way shooting stuff works can get in the silly corner. Just saying sniper rifle in close combat.
They have to be. Nobody has the nerve to play a simulation.

[Stahlseele]

i am that close to taking this:

from where I'm standing he sounded like he was being a hypocritical imbecile

as a personal insult.
watch your tone.

[Umidori]

I'm sick of this bullshit. Stop talking to me about hypotheticals and running circles around the topic at hand, and address my actual goddamn arguments.

I made solid, bulleted points. Respond directly to those points, or concede them as accurate. I'll list them here again, in simplified form.

1 - Assault Cannons Fire Bullets

All weapons that are moddable to FA fire bullets. Do you contest this?

2 - Assault Cannons Load Ammunition From Clips

All weapons that are moddable to FA load ammunition from either internal magazines or "clips". Do you contest this?

3 - Full Auto Assault Cannons Are Not Imbalanced

No weapon that would be imbalanced if operating in Full Auto is moddable to FA. Do you contest this?

~Umi

Edit - I'm sorry Stahl, I admit I was out of line with that comment. I'm frustrated because this discussion is being continued without addressing any of my arguments directly. It feels as though people are being evasive and duplicitious. That said, I have no grounds to fly off the handle and should conduct myself far better regardless of my own frustrations.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He JUST said that arrows do not have feathers. Are you trying to tell me he was being sarcastic and that I missed it? Because from where I'm standing he sounded like he was being a hypocritical imbecile. I really do hope he was just being sarcastic, because I'd rather not actually think that about the fellow.

I'm not at all contesting your point about not allowing things that are "totally silly". Indeed, just the opposite, which is why I was so angry at Stahl. He seemed to have made that exact point, and then turned around and ignored it completely.

What I am contesting is the reasoning people are using for deeming AC rounds "exotic". I find it woefully inadequate.

There is nothing "totally silly" about allowing an Assault Cannon to be modded for Full Auto Fire. It is not absurd in the least. To compare it to Trolls flying and Arrows lacking feathers and not using the archery skill is baffling at best, and maliciously disingenious at worst. I have demonstrated - without any kind of direct contention whatsoever! - numerous points of evidence which reinforce this notion, and which suggest that AC rounds are not exotic.

Moreover, the only opposing evidence to be offered up is laughable - a wild, unprecedented extrapolation from the chosen style of formatting of the Gear Listing entries!

My opponents have shown every callous disregard for the clear and obvious intentions of the rules. There is no doubt in my mind, not the slightest shred of possibility, that AC rounds are not exotic - that they were never meant to be exotic, and that if you asked the minds behind the Shadowrun system themselves, they would without hesitation say "No, of course they aren't exotic! That'd be silly!".

~Umi

How about this one, then, Umidori?

We have a RL basis of comparison for Sniper Rifles and the Barrett, and pretty much any Machine Gun you wish to talk about (except mini-guns, which are pretty rare for ground troops). No contention there.

Unfortunately, we do not have a Real world, In common use, personally carryable 30mm Assault Cannon used by a single Individual (Unless I missed something). Even if we were to have such a weapon, it would be a rarity in deployed forces. That rarity denotes exotic. If it was common place, everyone would have one.

Squad Automatic weapons are common in a Marine Corps Unit - I had 3-4 of them in my Squad, and there were 12-16 in my Platoon (Platoon size changed frequently).
MMG's are Common, we had a whoe section of them in our Company.
The HMG is UnCommon... though they are almost on every vehicle mount you can find, and we had an entire section of HMG teams in my Battalion.
This Assault Cannon would be rarer than that, even, and it would NOT be a single man device in deployment (Ammo weight preculdes that right now), and that very rarity would make it an exotic weapon attached to your unit.

Does that make more sense to you?

As for being overbalanced? Probably not... For me it is an aesthetics issue, more than anything else. *shrug*

[Stahlseele]

The only reason why such weapons are an oddity(not even rarity) today, is because they are not userfriendly enough.
If we had many people who could wield such a weapon on their own, then they would not be rare, they'd be pretty much common.
Why?
Because the military usually thinks like this:"how can i get the most ammount of firepower with the least ammount of money?"
kinda like we do over here on dumpshock.
so taking a weapon that you usually need to field on vehicles which usually cost several times the cost of the single weapon, you could take the weapon several times without the vehicle and drop it on grunts.
presto, you have multiplied the firepower available to the same number of grunts that used to be in the vehicle with the weapon originally AND made it cheaper for you to boot!
grunts can die, but they can also go places where vehicles can't go. and if a vehicle is disabled it's usually destroyed for good. a grunt that has been disabled can maybe be patched up to go again.

now in the world of shadowrun, we both have lighter, stronger materials and metahumans who can wield such weapony on their own just fine. and lives are cheap too.
so why an automatic version of an assault cannon should not be more common is beyond me. on the other hand, if we are going that way, why not go that way from the other end?
instead of trying to make a PAC fully automagic, why not instead take a fully automagic PAC(autocannon) and make it man(metahuman)-portable?

[Dakka Dakka]

Unfortunately, we do not have a Real world, In common use, personally carryable 30mm Assault Cannon used by a single Individual (Unless I missed something).

Where do you get that number? I'm pretty sure the writers of Shadowrun never mentioned calibers in their rulebooks. Most definitely not in SR4 (which is the only relevant edition, unless you play older ones).

As I said before I see SR's assault cannon in the 20mm range. And such weapons already exist.

Even if we were to have such a weapon, it would be a rarity in deployed forces. That rarity denotes exotic. If it was common place, everyone would have one.

The frequency does not make the ammunition exotic. It would require a set of properties that sets the AC rounds apart from all other rounds. One could argue that the lack of imposed misfire and explosion on a critical glitch would warrant such a distinction.

[KarmaInferno]

Unfortunately, we do not have a Real world, In common use, personally carryable 30mm Assault Cannon used by a single Individual (Unless I missed something).

The XM307 came pretty close.

I can see a troll lugging that around.

Technically, it is a grenade launcher, but Assault Cannons kinda blur the line with grenade launchers anyhow.



-k

[Stahlseele]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle
here, there are SEVERAL such rifles. not 30mm, i'll admit.
ok, they are not automatic either it seems . .

oh, hey, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster < = 25mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_II < = 30mm
big and heavy. but not that bad for better materials and trolls/orks and cyber/bioware

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now in the world of shadowrun, we both have lighter, stronger materials and metahumans who can wield such weapony on their own just fine. and lives are cheap too.

So why an automatic version of an assault cannon should not be more common is beyond me. On the other hand, if we are going that way, why not go that way from the other end?

Instead of trying to make a PAC fully automagic, why not instead take a fully automagic PAC(autocannon) and make it man(metahuman)-portable?

No doubt...

I agree that making the FA PAC man-portable is a better idea than trying to mod up something that is less effective. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Technically, it is a grenade launcher, but Assault Cannons kinda blur the line with grenade launchers anyhow.

Not really. while they have the accuracy grenade launchers should have, they have no way of inflicting area damage.

[ZeroPoint]

Check out the post I made a while ago with the 20mm rifle. Essentially uses the 20mm Vulcan round, and basically looks like a massive Barrett. That is the Panther assault cannon.


Barrett / GE Vigilant Light autocannon = .50 (~13mm) = real world comparisons in the Barret and GAU-19 (A/B)
Assault cannon = 20 mm = M61 Vulcan primarily
GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon = 30mm = GAU-8/A Avenger "This large autocannon is primarily used as a secondary weapon on ships or as main weapon on tankbusters [A10 Thunderbolt]...)

Not to mention anything firing 30mm rounds wouldn't even be troll portable, let alone human portable.

[ZeroPoint]

oh, hey, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster < = 25mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_II < = 30mm
big and heavy. but not that bad for better materials and trolls/orks and cyber/bioware

Those are chain powered [require external power source] weapons that weight 260+ lbs without ammo. Even with improved materials for reduced weight its gonna weight almost 300 lbs before all is said and done, and you'll still need the gyro harness to carry it. And a 20+ ton tank can handle the recoil of that 30mm round (fires the same round as the GAU-8 ) than can a 700 lb troll.

You could probably make one that was blowback operated instead of chain powered, that would also weight less, but you would still be on your ass after every shot.

[ShadowDragon8685]

The 30mm figure came from me. Sorry about that. Having thought about it, I don't believe a PAC is 30mm. It's probably less than that.

[ZeroPoint]

No problem, it was a good starting point when looking at what it would be to get the conversation started.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The 30mm figure came from me. Sorry about that. Having thought about it, I don't believe a PAC is 30mm. It's probably less than that.

Even 20-25mm is a LOT of Firepower in a small, contained package...
Modding that for FA Fire, as a Man-Portable device, is ludicrous beyond reason. *shrug*
But that is just me. Like I said earlier, it is an Aesthetic issue for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

I find that when it comes to killy hardware, the designers and consumers usually worry about performance first, and aesthetics never.

[Mach_Ten]

The XM307 came pretty close.

I can see a troll lugging that around.

Technically, it is a grenade launcher, but Assault Cannons kinda blur the line with grenade launchers anyhow.
-k

I posted that one a few pages back before -- popcorn-- ensued but re-reading it I found

the page includes a link to the 25mm Bullet version the XM312

it's really just a HMG ... not really the Cannon that the PAC I imagine would be like

otherwise it fits the bill in most respects :
large calibre
Full auto
doesn't need to be mounted on a fraggin tank (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Where do you get that number? I'm pretty sure the writers of Shadowrun never mentioned calibers in their rulebooks. Most definitely not in SR4 (which is the only relevant edition, unless you play older ones).

As I said before I see SR's assault cannon in the 20mm range. And such weapons already exist.

The frequency does not make the ammunition exotic. It would require a set of properties that sets the AC rounds apart from all other rounds. One could argue that the lack of imposed misfire and explosion on a critical glitch would warrant such a distinction.

They do not mention calibers but they do provide a comparison of "small tank". What small tank means can be left up for grabs. I've pointed out that the light tanks of WW2 used between 20-45mm guns with the mode being 37mm. IFVs tend to be 20-40mm with a mode of 30mm.

[All4BigGuns]

I'm sick of this bullshit. Stop talking to me about hypotheticals and running circles around the topic at hand, and address my actual goddamn arguments.

I made solid, bulleted points. Respond directly to those points, or concede them as accurate. I'll list them here again, in simplified form.

1 - Assault Cannons Fire Bullets

All weapons that are moddable to FA fire bullets. Do you contest this?

2 - Assault Cannons Load Ammunition From Clips

All weapons that are moddable to FA load ammunition from either internal magazines or "clips". Do you contest this?

3 - Full Auto Assault Cannons Are Not Imbalanced

No weapon that would be imbalanced if operating in Full Auto is moddable to FA. Do you contest this?

~Umi

1: The only thing I saw posted trying to contradict Assault Cannon Ammo being exotic was that there is an Anti-Vehicular variant of it. One additional variant does not make it not exotic, in fact it would go further into it being exotic since it not only takes a special ammunition normally, but the AV version of the ammo is also different from the AV ammo for other guns.

2: How the Assault Cannon loads ammunition is immaterial, only the ammunition itself.

3: Also immaterial to anything.

[X-Kalibur]

It depends entirely on your interpretation of the word "exotic".

1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants.
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle.
3. of a uniquely new or experimental nature: exotic weapons.
4. of, pertaining to, or involving stripteasing: the exotic clubs where strippers are featured.

point 1: I think we can all agree, this does not apply to the ammo.
point 2: As has been demonstrated, there is nothing truly unusual or strange about the rounds or how they work versus any other firearm
point 3: nothing uniquely new or experimental about the PAC
point 4: only if lesbian elves are involved.

So... how is it exotic again? Mind you we are talking about modern (by our standards or SR4 standards, really) firearms. Is the ammo listed anywhere as being "exotic" or is this merely being extrapolated from being unique, which is not a qualifier? A cursory glance at my SR4 PDF shows that neither the weapon or its ammo are listed as exotic.

<edit>
I'll also note that Archaic can sometimes be used as a synonym for exotic, leading to things like arrows, musket balls, etc still being exempt by the wording.

I can't believe I'm having to quote myself here.

Unique does not equate to exotic. Please stop positing this.

Exception going to something being unique and new, which the Assault Cannon is not, it has existed and been improved upon since SR1.

[All4BigGuns]

Does it use different ammunition than other firearms (even those that are also governed by Heavy Weapons skill)?

Answer: Yes.

By this, the ammunition is exotic and thus the weapon is ineligible for the modification that grants Full Auto.

[StealthSigma]

Does it use different ammunition than other firearms (even those that are also governed by Heavy Weapons skill)?

Answer: Yes.

By this, the ammunition is exotic and thus the weapon is ineligible for the modification that grants Full Auto.

Do shotguns use different ammunition than assault rifles?
Answer: Yes
By this, shotgun ammunition is exotic and thus shotguns are ineligible for the modification that grants Full Auto.

Do assault rifles use different ammunition than heavy pistols?
Answer: Yes
By this, assault rifle ammunition is exotic and thus assault rifles are ineligible for the modification that grants Full Auto.

Do submachine guns use different ammunition than sporting rifles?
Answer: Yes
By this, submachine gun ammunition is exotic and thus assault rifles are ineligible for the modification that grants Full Auto.

Erotic ammunition is not defined in the book so any definition of exotic ammunition is entirely arbitrary and GM fiat.

[X-Kalibur]

No, that makes the ammunition unique, not exotic. What truly makes it different, in game rules, than other heavy weapons? Well, it doesn't fire rockets or grenades (just like the MGs) and it has it's own ammo entry because it's not firing a 5.56, 7.62, or .50 cal round. Does this make its ammunition exotic? Does it have a different firing mechanism? Does the ammo work a different way (such as a musket ball, flame thrower, rail gun, laser)? No, it does not. Is the ammo listed anywhere in game text as being "exotic". No, it is not. Seems to me a lot of you are extrapolating over a misinterpretation of the word exotic.

I mean, really? I can make a revolver into an FA weapon but not an assault cannon?