[X] My Assistant

[Kiirnodel]

I know this argument has been going back and forth for a while now, but I think I just noticed something that might tip the balance.
Personally, I am actually very torn, I'm not sure which side I agree with. On the one hand, an assault cannon is a very powerful weapon, and making it be able to fire more often than the standard (SS, Complex Action) one shot per Pass can be devastating. But on the other hand, pushing the gun up to FA or even BF means you have very little space left for recoil compensation and with the doubling of the uncompensated recoil it balances things out a bit.

From what I've seen, the biggest (and primary) argument against Assault Cannons being modified is that the modification states that it cannot be put on guns with exotic ammunition. And the argument is that since Assault Cannon ammunition is listed as its own type, that makes it exotic.
On the other hand, most of the guns cited as having exotic ammunition (the ones exemplified in the modification for instance) don't have special ammunition listed on a chart. I believe the intent there being that you pay for regular ammunition and just label it yourself as being for that gun (no mechanical difference, just has different ammunition that makes it inexchangeable with other weapons, even of the same type).

MISCELLANEOUS AMMUNITION
Miscellaneous ammunition includes special types of ammunition
usually used in exotic or otherwise unique weapons. This
section also covers specialized kinds of rockets and missiles that
are custom tailored toward certain launchers.
Miscellaneous ammunitions cannot be used in types of weapons
other than those specified unless otherwise noted.
AV Assault Cannon Rounds: These assault cannon rounds
are specifically designed to be effective against vehicle armor.
...

Underlining done by myself for emphasis.
This section seems to indicate that, at the very least, Assault Cannons are "exotic or otherwise unique". This could then be attributed to the ammunition as well. Past this, I think it comes down to what the GM decides...
I don't know if I agree with it completely rules-wise, but the fact that Assault Cannons have unique enough ammunition to need their own specialized Ammo listing, and that their only advanced ammunition (the AV Assault Cannon Rounds) is listed in the "Miscellaneous Ammunition" section and not the regular ammunition for regular firearms; this leads me to believe the Assault Cannon would fall into the category of "weapon with exotic ammunition".

[Stahlseele]

if it's a light tank cannon, then it uses the same ammo as other light tank cannons.
thus it's not exotic i'd wager . .

[X-Kalibur]

You just fell into the unique equals exotic folly.

[Stahlseele]

how?
by pointing out that it probably uses the same ammo any number of light tank cannons use? O.o

[bannockburn]

Unique does not equate to exotic. Please stop positing this.

A dictionary definition isn't all there is. The context in which the word is used in the rules is important, too.
How are flamethrowers exotic weapons, in your definition? They are neither foreign, nor strikingly unusual (in fact they are used rather regularly in different capacities), nor experimental or new, and (I am quite certain) they are not lesbian ninja elf strippers.
Going through the list, there are only a very few weapons that come close to adhering to the dictionary reference. Lasers for being experimental if you're generous (they're in use for 20 years ingame time now).
Garrotes? Nope.
Kusarigama and Sai? Maybe, if you apply the 'foreign' definition. But why then aren't japanese characters allowed to use them with a different skill?
Why are whips exotic again?
Blowguns and Bolas? Very foreign from a very limited point of view ... other than that ... not really exotic.
Shooting Bracer? Of course, good spy gadget, very exotic, even after the dictionary.
Sonic rifle? I'd agree here.

Point being: The majority of what is an exotic weapon after the rulebook definition isn't exotic at all if you follow the dictionary.

[bannockburn]

Erotic ammunition is not defined in the book so any definition of exotic ammunition is entirely arbitrary and GM fiat.

I giggle silently. And I agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

A dictionary definition isn't all there is. The context in which the word is used in the rules is important, too.
How are flamethrowers exotic weapons, in your definition? They are neither foreign, nor strikingly unusual (in fact they are used rather regularly in different capacities), nor experimental or new, and (I am quite certain) they are not lesbian ninja elf strippers.
Going through the list, there are only a very few weapons that come close to adhering to the dictionary reference. Lasers for being experimental if you're generous (they're in use for 20 years ingame time now).
Garrotes? Nope.
Kusarigama and Sai? Maybe, if you apply the 'foreign' definition. But why then aren't japanese characters allowed to use them with a different skill?
Why are whips exotic again?
Blowguns and Bolas? Very foreign from a very limited point of view ... other than that ... not really exotic.
Shooting Bracer? Of course, good spy gadget, very exotic, even after the dictionary.
Sonic rifle? I'd agree here.

Point being: The majority of what is an exotic weapon after the rulebook definition isn't exotic at all if you follow the dictionary.

These weapons are all exotic because the rules declare them so. There is no definition of erotic ammunition therefore the only guide you have is inference from examples of exotic ammunition (of which one or two might be provided) or to rely upon the dictionary definition.

However, one thing that can be said is we do have defined exotic weapons. Exotic from exotic ammunition need not be an adjective describing ammunition but rather it can be a noun where exotic as a term is referencing exotic weapons. Do you have any exotics on you? Thus exotic ammunition would mean ammunition for exotics.

[bannockburn]

This is entirely my point, StealthSigma. The rulebook defines them as exotic. This definition of exotic does not match to the dictionary's.
Thus, I contest X-Calibur's view that unique does not mean exotic.
Well, not necessarily, at least.

[X-Kalibur]

how?
by pointing out that it probably uses the same ammo any number of light tank cannons use? O.o

Not you Stahl, above you.

@Bannock - that's all well and fine when they actually bother to specify something as exotic. But when it isn't spelled out as such? Then what? You have this. The rules do not, as stated, strictly prohibit modding the fire mode to FA on a PAC. Your interpretation of the PAC ammo as exotic, rather than unique to this portable weapon (and as Stahl said, not unique to other light tanks).

Personally I'd only ever mod it to SA, but why hurt someone's fun when other things are practically more powerful out of the box and don't inform the entire 1 mile radius around you that you're firing it?

[StealthSigma]

This is entirely my point, StealthSigma. The rulebook defines them as exotic. This definition of exotic does not match to the dictionary's.
Thus, I contest X-Calibur's view that unique does not mean exotic.
Well, not necessarily, at least.

The rulebook defines exotic weapons. This is a specific redefining of exotic, or specific trumps general.

[bannockburn]

@Bannock - that's all well and fine when they actually bother to specify something as exotic. But when it isn't spelled out as such? Then what? You have this.

No, actually I don't fall back to the dictionary at first. I first fall back to other examples in the rulebook. Such as the flamethrower, which is defined as an exotic weapon. AND is unique. Only if there is no similar precedence in a rulebook do I consider a real world source.

The rules do not, as stated, strictly prohibit modding the fire mode to FA on a PAC. Your interpretation of the PAC ammo as exotic, rather than unique to this portable weapon (and as Stahl said, not unique to other light tanks).

Personally I'd only ever mod it to SA, but why hurt someone's fun when other things are practically more powerful out of the box and don't inform the entire 1 mile radius around you that you're firing it?

My point is, for the umpteenth time, that it is entirely up to the definition of exotic ammunition if it is allowed to mod an assault cannon to FA. Nothing more, nothing less. I could care less about 'balance issues' or 'ruining fun'.

[All4BigGuns]

Basically it comes down to whether one can use EX-Explosive, APDS, SnS or various other different ammunitions with the weapon. If the answer is no, then it can't be modified to Full Auto. (Yes, I realize that this would apply to anything with High Power Chambering as well, but no big issue there, as it gives reason to use any printed Full Auto capable weapons with that mod rather than just making your own through modification.)

[X-Kalibur]

You say that, and yet, the RAW does not disallow it because neither the PAC or it's ammo are actually listed as exotic. So... why are you arguing this, exactly?

[Stahlseele]

@X-Kalibur
Oh! ^^#

[bannockburn]

You say that, and yet, the RAW does not disallow it because neither the PAC or it's ammo are actually listed as exotic. So... why are you arguing this, exactly?

I'm sorry. Did you not read the last few pages? Or are you willfully ignoring the points that have been made so far?
There is no ammunition listed as exotic. At all. Thus, there needs to be a definition of what is and isn't exotic ammunition. No one is contesting that the assault cannon is a heavy weapon, not an exotic one.
But as the rulebook does not tell us what is exotic ammunition, you need to find one. You decide to look at a dictionary. It is valid to do so. I decide to first look at other precedents of what is used in this context inside the actual rulebook.

Again, quoting StealthSigma:

Erotic ammunition is not defined in the book so any definition of exotic ammunition is entirely arbitrary and GM fiat.

Thank you, I rest my case.

[X-Kalibur]

I'm sorry. Did you not read the last few pages? Or are you willfully ignoring the points that have been made so far?
There is no ammunition listed as exotic. At all. Thus, there needs to be a definition of what is and isn't exotic ammunition. No one is contesting that the assault cannon is a heavy weapon, not an exotic one.
But as the rulebook does not tell us what is exotic ammunition, you need to find one. You decide to look at a dictionary. It is valid to do so. I decide to first look at other precedents of what is used in this context inside the actual rulebook.

Then you're not using RAW, you're using your own version of RAI.

[Kiirnodel]

You say that, and yet, the RAW does not disallow it because neither the PAC or it's ammo are actually listed as exotic. So... why are you arguing this, exactly?

Actually, if you read the text I quoted from Arsenal. The Assault Cannon weapon type is explicitly listed as being "exotic or unique". Thus why the AV rounds for it are listed in the Miscellaneous Ammunition section.

As for exotic != unique, they seem to use it synonymously through most of the books...

[StealthSigma]

I'm sorry. Did you not read the last few pages? Or are you willfully ignoring the points that have been made so far?
There is no ammunition listed as exotic. At all. Thus, there needs to be a definition of what is and isn't exotic ammunition. No one is contesting that the assault cannon is a heavy weapon, not an exotic one.
But as the rulebook does not tell us what is exotic ammunition, you need to find one. You decide to look at a dictionary. It is valid to do so. I decide to first look at other precedents of what is used in this context inside the actual rulebook.

Again, quoting StealthSigma:


Thank you, I rest my case.

He's listening clearly. This is a common problem I've noted when All4BigGuns comes into any topic. He parades his arbitrary fiat rulings as RAW and does not accept or even cede that any other definition is also equally correct. Many people on the forums haven't recognized this and so fall into the same trap over and over, myself included though my trap tends to be trying to get him to realize that he's parading arbitrary fiat as RAW.

[bannockburn]

There is no RAW, if interpretation is needed.
RAW would exist, if there were a passage telling us "Exotic Ammunition is defined as X". There is none. Do you not understand this?

[StealthSigma]

Actually, if you read the text I quoted from Arsenal. The Assault Cannon weapon type is explicitly listed as being "exotic or unique". Thus why the AV rounds for it are listed in the Miscellaneous Ammunition section.

As for exotic != unique, they seem to use it synonymously through most of the books...

The miscellaneous ammo section only exists in Arsenal. Assault Cannon rounds are group will ammunition in general in SR4a. Anyway, the sentence is clearly stating that the ammunition in miscellaneous is used in exotic weapons and not that the ammunition itself is exotic.

[X-Kalibur]

There is no RAW, if interpretation is needed.
RAW would exist, if there were a passage telling us "Exotic Ammunition is defined as X". There is none. Do you not understand this?

An undefined rule is still a rule. However, as written, nothing falls into that rule. Do you not understand this? The rules, as written, say the mod cannot be applied to weapons that use exotic ammo. However, there is no ammo defined as exotic. The rule still stands, it merely doesn't work. I mean, you can certainly mod your flame thrower or rocket launcher for FA... but given their rules for firing and/or clip size, I wouldn't recommend it.

[bannockburn]

An undefined rule is still a rule.

I've stopped reading here. Good night.

[StealthSigma]

An undefined rule is still a rule. However, as written, nothing falls into that rule. Do you not understand this? The rules, as written, say the mod cannot be applied to weapons that use exotic ammo. However, there is no ammo defined as exotic. The rule still stands, it merely doesn't work. I mean, you can certainly mod your flame thrower or rocket launcher for FA... but given their rules for firing and/or clip size, I wouldn't recommend it.

The rule as written lacks definition and only provides two examples. Those examples just happen to be the only two weapons that one can say with certainty cannot accept the modification.

[All4BigGuns]

If you guys want to make the serious mistake of letting that thing be Full Auto, have at it, but don't say no one warned you. Also, if someone ever tries coming into one of my games with that, I'm grabbing the phone book.

[Stahlseele]

The FA PAC is in NO WAY worse than the Minigun or the Gauss-Rifle in terms of game balance . .
Or than a Missle/Rocket-Launcher. Or a Grenade-Launcher.