[X] My Assistant

[X-Kalibur]

The FA PAC is in NO WAY worse than the Minigun or the Gauss-Rifle in terms of game balance . .
Or than a Missle/Rocket-Launcher. Or a Grenade-Launcher.

Well, it's more accurate than the launchers. But you have the right of it. Although honestly I'd say that FA is a bit overkill for it (or for any of the sniper rifles really). SA keeps them perfectly reasonable and accurate.

[Stahlseele]

The only thing i see wrong with an FA PAC is that it simply does not help as much as one would think.
High Base Damage means diminishing returns are way worse than with smaller guns.
I mean, look at the Minigun. It has, under SR3 rules, a BASE DAMAGE of 7S. And with 15 bullets fired, it goes up to 22D
Which is THREE TIMES the base damage in Power and an automagical jump in Damage.
The PAC, under SR3 Rules, has an 18D Base-Damage. Fully-Automagical means a maximum of 10 bullets for 28D.
Not even doubled the Power and no jump in damage AT ALL. So even if it would be the single strongest Attack you can launch, it is, technically speaking, not worth it.
Add in Ammo-Cost and availability and it gets even worse. And the limited Magazine-size means you probably can't even go all out even once, because the Magazine runs out of bullets first.
Don't know the SR4 Numbers, but i suspect it to be similar there.

[Irion]

Well, they make it a bit better. Only DV 10 if I am not misstaken. (In SR3 I guess the recoil would kill you, so...)
But yeah, it is silly anyway. It is just the look at me shooting my PAC in short burst having fun with the "recoil" rules....

[Stahlseele]

Oh no, that's not a Problem.
Getting 3 points of RC on that won't be too hard.
And only uncompensated Recoil gets doubled in Shotguns and Heavy Weapons.
So if you can get enough RC in, no Problem at all.
This is also why the Minigun is so craptastically useless as a man portable weapon.
No way in hell of getting 15 points of RC to counter that. and even if you get 10 points of RC in, you still have 5 points left which get doubled for 10 . .
So yes, in my eyes an FA PAC is more viable than the Minigun, but it just does not profit enough from the FA compared to other weapons to be viable at all in my eyes . .
And no, the minigun ain't viable for personal use in my eyes either, because of the recoil problem . .

[KarmaInferno]

There is a reason miniguns are usually vehicle mounted.


-k

[Stahlseele]

There is a reason miniguns are usually vehicle mounted.


-k

it is classified as a man portable weapon, and as such, in my eyes at least, should be viable for use as such <.<;,
hell, we have these today and it works reasonably well enough i guess . .

[Umidori]

It amuses me how All4BigGuns "responded" to my bulleted arguments by not at all responding to them.

Me: Assault Cannons use bullets, as do every kind of FA moddable weapon. Do you agree?
A4BG: I'm going to completely ignore your point and talk about Gear Listings again instead.

Me: Assault Cannons load from a clip, as do every kind of FA moddable weapon. Do you agree?
A4BG: I going to just claim that your argument is invalid without any logical reasoning on my part whatsoever.

Me: FA Assault Cannons aren't imbalanced, and no weapon that would be is allowed to be modded to FA. Do you agree?
A4BG: I can't hear you over the sound of my ignoring your arguments entirely! La la la la la la laaaaa!

Any other takers? I have a line of rational thought that I'd like to actually dicuss. Or should I just assume that people concede my points, albeit begrudgingly?

~Umi

Edit - As for the viability of the Minigun, you can actually hit 14 RC, even without using the optional High Strength reduces recoil rules from Arsenal. Which leaves you with 1 recoil, doubled to 2, which is entirely manageable.

[Stahlseele]

i think the FA PAC is well within the rules, it's just dumb to do it.
can be done for hillarious results, but i still think it's not worth it.

[Umidori]

I agree. The Barrett Model 121 loaded with EX-Explosive rounds does the EXACT SAME damage and armor penetration, uses Longarms instead of Heavy Weapons, doesn't suffer doubled uncompensated recoil, is cheaper and easier to get, fires ammo that is cheaper and easier to get, and is smaller and more concealable. The only downside is it holds 1 less round per clip.

Probably neither one is worth modding to FA, but if you really wanted to you could.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

The PAC has, ironically, always been the better sniper of the two, for exactly these reasons . .
Better to mod a Barret to fire Burst or Full Auto and use the PAC as a Sniper instead . .

[Umidori]

Yeah, in SS or SA terms, the PAC is definitely a better sniping tool if you don't mind the Heavy Weapons skill. You can even put a silencer on it.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

Who would EVER mind that skill? O.o

Also, technically, PAC and Barret are one and the same as we all know . .
Because the PAC is based on the Cobra Assault Cannon from Robocop . .
Which is only a Barret after all . .

[Umidori]

But Stahl, that can't possibly be true! Because assault cannons rounds are listed separately in the the Gear Listing tables! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

just a marketing ploy to get more money, wanna bet?

[All4BigGuns]

Yeah, in SS or SA terms, the PAC is definitely a better sniping tool if you don't mind the Heavy Weapons skill. You can even put a silencer on it.

~Umi

With this sort of silliness, no wonder you won't listen to reason. No one in their right mind would let someone put a silencer on a fragging ASSAULT CANNON.