[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Thats true for everything... So? There ain't any exotic ammunition?

Of course there is.
Assault Canon Rounds are an example.

[bannockburn]

Of course Assault Canon Rounds are Exotic. Irion is not stating that, I do not think.
I could be mistaking in that, but that is how he is reading, anyways.

I am at a bit at a loss here. I think I just supported his view on them being exotic, didn't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit, and now with actual content: I'm hoping no one is going to quote the Anti Tank rounds from War, p.156. Those are less expensive than AV rounds and, IMO another fine example of really bad editing / rules writing in that monstrosity of a book.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am at a bit at a loss here. I think I just supported his view on them being exotic, didn't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit, and now with actual content: I'm hoping no one is going to quote the Anti Tank rounds from War, p.156. Those are less expensive than AV rounds and, IMO another fine example of really bad editing / rules writing in that monstrosity of a book.

From my reading, he seems to be arguing that ALL ammunition is Exotic, so therefore none is.
He is a bit confusing (or I am a bit confused). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

Or we all are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Irion was of the opinion that Assault Cannon ammo is Exotic. He was responding to ShadowDragon.

I for one do not agree. Assault Cannon rounds are bullets, just larger. This is in contrast to arrows, musket balls, or netgun ammo.

They are loaded like bullets, they fire like bullets, and there are existing full-auto weapons in the game that do use assault cannon rounds in the game. Hell, we have full auto 20-30mm cannons in existence TODAY. If it's a projectile attached to a propellant charge designed to be placed into a firing chamber, where the propellant generates rapidly expanding gasses driving the projectile at high speeds out the barrel, it's a damn bullet, regardless of the size.

Granted, the definition of "Exotic" is imprecise in SR, but I feel that it refers to stuff that is clearly not anywhere close to "bullet", or bullet-like. The restriction against full auto for those makes sense, because it'd be difficult if not impossible to create a reliable auto-loading mechanism for them. More of a practical limitation, rather than any sort of game balance limitation.





-k

[bannockburn]

And yet, you don't get them in all the different ammo types and they have separate prices and categories (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
As this is true for gauss rifles, flamers and dartguns, I hold it's true for assault cannons as well.

These highly stable explosive rounds are made of HDX superplast compound.

I am not really knowledgeable in the world of ammunition and guns, but this doesn't sound like a regular bullet to me.

[KarmaInferno]

And yet, you don't get them in all the different ammo types and they have separate prices and categories (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
As this is true for gauss rifles, flamers and dartguns, I hold it's true for assault cannons as well.


I am not really knowledgeable in the world of ammunition and guns, but this doesn't sound like a regular bullet to me.

I understand your argument, you are looking at it from a rules point of view.

As someone who DOES know a good bit about ammunition and guns, I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

To me, the fact that they are on different charts is completely irrelevant.

They are projectiles launched out of a barrel by the chemical based propellant. There is no good practical reason you should not be able to use the same basic design an assault rifle uses to auto-load ammo for an assault cannon. A real world weapons engineer could theoretically modify a 20mm class cannon to full auto today, with some work.

In contrast, trying to make a full auto, say, arrow launcher would more or less require designing a whole new weapon from the ground up, and as such would be beyond the modding rules.


-k

[bannockburn]

Yes, I see where you're coming from, then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I also hold that there are full auto assault cannons. Those are called autocannons ^^
No need to mod them, as even the notion of a fully automatic assault cannon being fired from a person, not from a vehicle, seems supremely silly to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

I also hold that there are full auto assault cannons. Those are called autocannons ^^

There is no indication that there is a relation between assault cannons and auto cannons or a connection between their respective ammunitions (the latter does not even have ammunition AFAICT). The GE Light/Heavy Cannon on the other hand is said to shoot something that could possibly be similar to assault cannon rounds. It is also described as not exotic. Those two weapons also use the same range as Assault Cannons

No need to mod them, as even the notion of a fully automatic assault cannon being fired from a person, not from a vehicle, seems supremely silly to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The vehicle weapon is not an automatic assault cannon. The autocannon is much more closely related to a minigun.

[bannockburn]

No, they're just similar enough in damage codes to make the comparison. Sorry if that was unclear.
I still would laugh in the face of every player trying to fire one from the hip.

[Umidori]

Whether there is a need to mod a Panther XXL for FA fire or not is irrelevant. It's still possible. And It's still not imbalanced.

People are being really pedantic about this. The Firing Selection Change mod gives very good examples of what sorts of things it considers to be unacceptable. First is the Sakura Fubuki, which has 4 separate barrels, a non-standard magazine, bullets stacked in-line in barrel, and no moving parts. Second is the Pain Inducer, which is a microwave beam weapon that operates off peak-discharge power packs.

Assault cannons don't come anywhere near that level of difference. They fire bullets - very large ones, but bullets all the same. They have a regular loading mechanism, and the ammunition is stored in a "clip" or spring-fed magazine, just like every single FA capable weapon in the game.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

why you would want to mod one is beyond me anyway . .
at that power, that's too much diminishing returns in my opinion.

[bannockburn]

Whether there is a need to mod a Panther XXL for FA fire or not is irrelevant. It's still possible. And It's still not imbalanced.

Never said it was imbalanced.
I dispute your 'possible', as does Irion. RAW clearly says "This modification is not available for weapons using unusual loading mechanisms or exotic ammunition" and then gives two weapons as examples. Inferring from those examples that there needs to be a correlation to another unmoddable weapon is a fallacy. The Fubuki and the pain inducer would be examples for 'unusual loading mechanisms', not necessarily exotic ammunition.
Your 'possible' is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what is and what isn't exotic ammunition. I don't share that interpretation for reasons stated above. You chose to scoff at this reasoning, but that does not make you right or me wrong. Nor does posting something in bold face and calling people stupid, btw.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I understand your argument, you are looking at it from a rules point of view.

As someone who DOES know a good bit about ammunition and guns, I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

To me, the fact that they are on different charts is completely irrelevant.

They are projectiles launched out of a barrel by the chemical based propellant. There is no good practical reason you should not be able to use the same basic design an assault rifle uses to auto-load ammo for an assault cannon. A real world weapons engineer could theoretically modify a 20mm class cannon to full auto today, with some work.

In contrast, trying to make a full auto, say, arrow launcher would more or less require designing a whole new weapon from the ground up, and as such would be beyond the modding rules.

-k

By That Logic, Rockets are not Exotic. I am pretty sure we can consider them as such from a Game point of View.
Practicality has absolutely nothing to do with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Technically, the fubuki should be FA capable in stock . .

[Dakka Dakka]

And much faster than HV too.

[Mach_Ten]

Whether there is a need to mod a Panther XXL for FA fire or not is irrelevant. It's still possible. And It's still not imbalanced.

~Umi

I'm with BOTH Umi & KarmaInferno on the Ammo, but not on the ability to midify

the Ammo is not exotic, it's big bullets

BUT, the RAW of it says "unusual Firing Mechanism or exotic Ammo"

and as posted previously I've been shoulder deep in many a cannon "Wahey!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

the mechanism .. in my experience is an entirely different beast to that of a standard "Bolt fed" weapon.

not only in the slowness of picking up the round, but essentially it's a goddamn conveyor belt with a mechanical arm that grabs the round and feeds it into the chamber the breech is closed and then it fires with the recoil exerting the force to re-cock.

it's just so different (on the weapons I worked on) as to be unsuitable for switching to burst or FA.

that's not to say 70 years of advancement etc. etc. .. but still by game terms ... not applicable
#edit#
I should add, the cannon is question is SA not SS .. there is a 3 round shelf on it for loading rounds.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Mach_Ten: The Panther has a clip-magazine, though. It's not a breachloader. It's a normal rifle firing mechanism writ large.


It's probably impractical or impossible to do with today's materials science, but the Shadowrun 2070s materials science beats the pants off ours.

[All4BigGuns]

Never said it was imbalanced.
I dispute your 'possible', as does Irion. RAW clearly says "This modification is not available for weapons using unusual loading mechanisms or exotic ammunition" and then gives two weapons as examples. Inferring from those examples that there needs to be a correlation to another unmoddable weapon is a fallacy. The Fubuki and the pain inducer would be examples for 'unusual loading mechanisms', not necessarily exotic ammunition.
Your 'possible' is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what is and what isn't exotic ammunition. I don't share that interpretation for reasons stated above. You chose to scoff at this reasoning, but that does not make you right or me wrong. Nor does posting something in bold face and calling people stupid, btw.

I look at the "exotic ammunition" phrase as applying to weapons that can only fire one specific ammo type, and since a Panther can only fire 'assault cannon ammo' it would apply. (And yes, I would apply the same to any weapon with High Power Chambering since that mod restricts the weapon to one ammo type.)

[bannockburn]

Technically, two kinds of ammo, since there's regular and AV, and even a third kind that's specific to gauss rifles (which are an undercategory of assault cannons, but who's keeping track), but that's the core of my argument, yes.

[Stahlseele]

Sabot Rounds!

[ZeroPoint]

Autocannon Here

The second picture down is a comparison of the 20mm rifle to a what is essentially the .50 Barrett.

Just so we're all clear.

[StealthSigma]

Never said it was imbalanced.
I dispute your 'possible', as does Irion. RAW clearly says "This modification is not available for weapons using unusual loading mechanisms or exotic ammunition" and then gives two weapons as examples. Inferring from those examples that there needs to be a correlation to another unmoddable weapon is a fallacy. The Fubuki and the pain inducer would be examples for 'unusual loading mechanisms', not necessarily exotic ammunition.
Your 'possible' is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what is and what isn't exotic ammunition. I don't share that interpretation for reasons stated above. You chose to scoff at this reasoning, but that does not make you right or me wrong. Nor does posting something in bold face and calling people stupid, btw.

It lists two examples that can be 1:1 mapped with the Fubuki as an example of the unusual loading mechanism and the Pain Inducer as exotic ammunition. Exotic does not mean unique. That only one weapon uses the ammunition is not sufficient to make it exotic. It seems to me that exotic ammunition is referring to exotic weapons that don't otherwise describe themselves as using the same ammunition as a non-exotic weapon.

[bannockburn]

In regards to the mentioned weapons: note the word 'necessarily' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Your interpretation is valid, too. There is no clear definition in the book as to what kind of ammunition is considered exotic, so it's entirely up to the GM arbitrating the issue.
In Umidori's and your groups it would be possible to mod an assault cannon for fully automatic fire (if somewhat strange (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), in mine and Irion's it wouldn't be.

[Umidori]

Let me just get the core of your argument straight, for the record.

Are you saying that as Assault Cannon rounds are unique to Assault Cannons, they are therefor exotic?

~Umi