[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

I'm pretty sure the fine authors of the world would hire thugs to jump up and down on my hands so that I never write again...

[hermit]

They wouldn't live up to her standards either, stream of consciousness and all that.

[Lionhearted]

What exactly is these "fine art cirles"?
Last I checked classical arts are struggling to stay relevant, is it a laugh of blissful ignorance?
Because it's sure as hell easier to make a living as an illustrator.

[hermit]

Last I checked classical arts are struggling to stay relevant, is it a laugh of blissful ignorance?

Not really. Check what a Neo Rauch sells for these days. Classical arts are as well or unwell as they've ever been.

[Lionhearted]

It's probably easier to win the lottery then make it big as an artist...

[hermit]

Nah. You may never become Neo Rauch, but your bills are unlikely to go unpaid if you are any good.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Art is subjective. Always has been. Some people in LA will spend $50,000 for a white canvas with a red dot in one corner and go on at length about the artists vision and what not. In reality it's a red dot on a white background. I could paint the same thing for the cost of the canvas and a few bucks for the red paint. Exact same "Artistic work". *Shrugs* People like to cite the 'classics' and what not. By and large I think they are meh. Not my style you know?

[CanRay]

It's probably easier to win the lottery then make it big as an artist...

Rule One for being an artist/author: GET ANOTHER JOB SO YOU DON'T STARVE!!!

[Bull]

Could be an illusion spell (trideo phantasm, anyone?), too.

I will also note that, well, spirits can look like damn near anything. So for all we know, that's a City Spirit that looks like a giant cockroach for whatever reason.

Used sparingly, that could actually be a great tactic, since bugs are pretty much still on of the worlds big bad boogey men. I mean, how would your PC react to seeing something that looks like a bug spirit pop up? I know "oh drek!" is mine. Spirits are kinda scary, but they're just spirits. The GM says "You see 4 guards and and air spirit", it's all in a days work. "4 guards and a roach spirit" though, suddenly this run got a whole lot more complicated, or so I think.

(Note, these are just thoughts and opinions based on things I've actually done to my runners in the past, or had done to me. This is not indicative of the type of spirit depicted on the cover of SR5. While I've been following the various art refinements, I don't know what type of spirit that's actually supposed to be, if it's defined at all anywhere. It's entirely possible it exists because the artist thought it looked cool. And none of us diagreed.)

Bull

[ShadowDragon8685]

Bull - That strategy is likely to backfire hilariously. Nothing says "Kill it with FIRE!" quite like Bug Spirits.

What was just a standard datasteal might turn into a holocaust if the Runners conclude the entire building is hived and decide that for the good of metahumanity, they have to let their insane pyromancer off the leash and let slip the dogs of war. Cue the hacker locking the doors and the pyro burninating and cleansing the whole building in flame.

And they'd feel good about it, too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Possible, but I'm betting the "Wet themselves with fear "ABORT ABORT ABORT" happens a bit more than "KILL UM ALL AND LET PREZ DUNK SORT UM OUT!!" type. lol

[tasti man LH]

Last I checked, most runners are more concerned with saving their own skins versus saving everyone else in the sprawl.

[phlapjack77]

I will also note that, well, spirits can look like damn near anything. So for all we know, that's a City Spirit that looks like a giant cockroach for whatever reason.

So....what I'm hearing from you is that things like "City Spirits" are coming back... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

So....what I'm hearing from you is that things like "City Spirits" are coming back... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh, THAT'S what you read off that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And technically speaking, City Spirits never went anywhere. They're just one of the variants of "Spirits of Man". It's pure habit for me, but I almost always make a distinction between what I'm summoning in correlation to where it's being summoned. I still say Hearth SPirits. Mages still only summon Elementals.

But that's just me being an old grognard. After all, I still call 'em Deckers...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[phlapjack77]

Yeah, was just hoping you accidentally let something slip about the new edition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Last I checked, most runners are more concerned with saving their own skins versus saving everyone else in the sprawl.

Shadowland and Crash 2.0 tends to differ in that opinion.

[Sengir]

What was just a standard datasteal might turn into a holocaust if the Runners conclude the entire building is hived and decide that for the good of metahumanity, they have to let their insane pyromancer off the leash and let slip the dogs of war.

Somebody called?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Possible, but I'm betting the "Wet themselves with fear "ABORT ABORT ABORT" happens a bit more than "KILL UM ALL AND LET PREZ DUNK SORT UM OUT!!" type. lol

Somebody needs to bring back Big D's Temper rounds for shotguns in SR4/5.

And when it comes to Bug Spirit infestations, you definitely want to go with the "Let Big D sort 'em out" option. That, or flee the country.

Last I checked, most runners are more concerned with saving their own skins versus saving everyone else in the sprawl.

If the whole sprawl goes bug, what Shadows, exactly, are you going to be running in? When everybody and their dog has a Roach Spirit infesting them, it's game over time. You're looking at another Chicago - at best. So sure, you could just leg it and piss yourselves in fear and hop the next plane to Shanghai and leave a note on the local Shadowlands telling any uninfested Runners to get the frag out of Dodge before it's too late... Or you could do something about it.

Most NPC runners would probably get the hell out of Dodge. Fortunately for the world, there are PC runners, being the heroes for hire that the world deserves since 1989.


[e]Admittedly, saving the world doesn't pay very well. Fortunately, you should be able to extract some paydata or valuable prototypes or something when you burn the building. That's what looting is for.

[ShadowJackal]

I do understand that you hold the cover art for an RPG book to an impossibly high standard while inferring intent on the artist's part that you have no way of knowing about.
You apply the rules (yes I know them, and I know that it is USEFUL to know them in order to break them, but not necessary. There are tons of autodidacts that prove you very, very wrong) and therefore do not like the artwork. Don't get me wrong here. I am a critic as well, but the overall tone is good enough for an RPG cover, in my _opinion_ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I do not like it 100%, as I've pointed out in an earlier post, but the things you criticize are good enough for my taste to represent the SR world.

And we're in full agreement over Vallejo. He still earned tons of money with his bikini chainmail girls.

I just find it inherently necessary to adhere to a standard, that's my only real point. Work can't improve if you don't hold yourself to a standard.

That sounds rather snobbish. The reputation of abstract art everywhere but fine art circles and their hanger-ons nonwithstanding, it is also rather unfair. It is quite similar to saying you don't care about 50% of the electorate because they're not rich enough to matter anyway. Modesty is a virtue, something many artists, especially 'fine' artists, don't seem to understand. Well, as long as there are enough muppets who will pay ridiculous amounts of money for the nth iteration of "it's a blank canvas" ...

Not to say anatomical problems aren't bad and all, but seriously, you have to adapt the level of criticism leveled at a certain work somewhat with the artist's level of skill. So you studied at a prestigious school that was prestigious enough you had to say that in nearly every post. Good for you. Would you hold your nephew (12), who draws with far more enthusiasm than skill, to the same standard your work is held to? Btw, can you link to some of your works? I'm curious what artists who study at the world'S most prestigious schools are capable of.

I don't intend to sound snobbish so I truly appologise for my tone. I'm not sure how many fine artists you know in person but most that I've known are really down to earth and just want to have a few drinks and paint. The confidence and the "snobbish behavior" I'd imagine comes from the air you have to put on in the "circles" which is really more to do with the critics and gallery owners, but I'm starting to get way off topic here.

I would hold a child to the same standards I hold anyone to, but on a gradient scale. Whatver you're drawing needs to be drawn to the best of your ability and to be done with intent and purpose. There are steps to take in order to get to that point. One case that's easy to relate to is one that I encountered a few weeks ago with a friend.

My best friend is a craftsperson by trade. She creates miniatures and sells them for thousands of dollars on a regular basis, she's easily one of the best in that particular hobby. We were sitting around gaming and she was drawing her character and she mentions "I suck at drawing hands.", so I grab a post-it and a pencil and start sketching my own hand explaining that if you look at something you can usually draw it much better because you have a point of reference and you are breaking your brain's natural tendency to work from memory. She stated that she couldn't draw anything in person, only from memory. Needless to say, she isn't very adept in the realm of sketching.

Back to the nephew point, I wouldn't expect him to draw a hand like a great master, but I would expect him to look at his hand and do his very best to see all the details. That's what this cover is lacking, there is no life in it because there isn't any true human point of reference. This is also the reason why the anatomy is so incorrect, there's no point of reference.

I'd rather not post my work to this thread because I enjoy my anonymity and I'd rather not let my real name out here but here's some of my sketches (Including a dragon) if you're interested. My actual paintings are on sites associated with my name that I'd rather not link to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I always knew Raphael was a loser.

*snerk* I see what you did there...

[ShadowJackal]

What exactly is these "fine art cirles"?
Last I checked classical arts are struggling to stay relevant, is it a laugh of blissful ignorance?
Because it's sure as hell easier to make a living as an illustrator.

It's probably easier to win the lottery then make it big as an artist...

I wouldn't say that's exactly true or untrue, you have to play the field and schmooze but there's a market out there. The real problem is dealing with the subjective nature of an artist muse and sticking with something.Sometimes you just can't produce work. The modern art world is booming in many ways, heck I recently saw the work of a student I studied with in a major museum and I haven't been out of school for *that* long, I'd say that's a moderate level of success. I have friends that attended other schools that are making it on their own on a variety of levels, some producing small works and earning a normal middle income salary and others that are extremely successful. The vast majority of my close friends are in the creative fields and earn their living alone on that.

Art is subjective. Always has been. Some people in LA will spend $50,000 for a white canvas with a red dot in one corner and go on at length about the artists vision and what not. In reality it's a red dot on a white background. I could paint the same thing for the cost of the canvas and a few bucks for the red paint. Exact same "Artistic work". *Shrugs* People like to cite the 'classics' and what not. By and large I think they are meh. Not my style you know?

I know this won't convince you or anyone else on the subject but the point it always comes back to is that you didn't think of that, so you wouldn't do it. It sounds ambiguous but it really comes down to intention. As I mentioned earlier I'm an abstract artist that works in fields of color. My work probably falls into your realm of "I could paint this in five minutes" but it is more than that. It's about color, composition, tone, music and feel. It's about emotion and love and feeling and texture and beyond that, the technique of it is all mine. I know this won't make a lot of sense, but there is more to abstract art than just slapping something on a canvas.

Rule One for being an artist/author: GET ANOTHER JOB SO YOU DON'T STARVE!!!

See above, if you work hard enough and want it bad enough you can do it! This is true for anything you love! Just keep pushing and trying and eventually you'll find a way to do it!

[ShadowJackal]

As a writer, I know my stuff is the literary equivalent of a Big Mac with fries (thanks be to Stephen King for giving me that line to rip off). And I'm all right with that. As fast food burgers go, my stuff is pretty good. I'm not Steven Brust, by any means, nor even Stephen King. We'll leave masters like Dickens and Joyce out of it (though I'm no great fan of Joyce, to be sure).

But I make a damn good burger and fries, nonetheless. I don't need to make foie gras to know I'm good, and I don't expect that someone demanding foie gras is going to like my stuff.

I'm kind of amused about how snobbish a lot of artists (and writers, to be fair) come across when they see something produced for a relative pittance (though I'm sure Michael Komarck gets more for that cover than I got for, say, Running Wild) for the mass market, and decide it's not Michelangelo or Hugo, and therefore it's no damn good. I honestly don't know what they're expecting by holding people to the impossibly high standards they hold them to. You try working to the timetables that commercial art directors and editors hold you to (and I know whereof I speak here), working from notes that get pretty specific at times, and let's see you turn in O'Keeffe or Verne.

I'm not a painter. I'm a writer and a photographer. I don't claim to be great at either, but I know enough about visual arts to comment on it reasonably intelligently, at least in terms of composition and style (though, since I never took any classes at the world's most presitigious art institutes, I know my commentary probably doesn't matter). So here we go:

Is it a little busy? Yeah, maybe, but combat scenes can get pretty frenetic without a lot of effort. (They're a bitch to write, too, for the record, at least for me.) I'm not 100% sold on all the logos, but I do know that it feels very Blade Runner to me in that sense; there were logos on every damn thing in Blade Runner, and I feel like this gets that part right. Some of those corp logos are gonna be covered up by the Shadowrun logo anyway, so I don't see that as a negative.

The composition works for me; it seems fairly balanced to me, and it easy enough to follow what's going on. I'm curious about what's going on, but it's not enough to make me say, "There's no story!" Sure there is: Runners are in a hell of a fix and trying to get out of it, while security has come up a different way and they're tyring very much to keep the runners from leaving. It's a tale as old as crime itself, though that bug is sure making me nervous.

Are there problems with contrast and perspective? A little, on the perspective front anyway, though unlike some of esteemed fellow forum denizens, I don't have an issue with the contrast, particularly. I like the color palette, and the lighting works for me, too.

Overall, the image screams "Cool adventure!" and "You wanna play this game!" to me, and that (ultimately) is its job. So I think he succeeds here. I'd pick up this book to see if the game itself was as cool as the cover based on this image.

Hell, I might even super-size it....

I wanted to reply to this specifically because you put this in words that really made me think about things. I totally understand your perspective but I think that you and I think in a similar vein. You say you make a the writer's equivalent of a Big Mac, and that you are trying to make the best Big Mac you can. That's what I find to be most important. I have a problem with the work because it feels cheap and unfinished, it's unedited, it just needs a few things to be a really good cover!

Trust me when I say I understand that the payment on this piece probably equated to about $3 an hour, but I guess I just want to see an artist create work to the best of their ability and strive for the best possible. I think it's important to want to do the best that you can, and if this is the best the artist can do, that's great, his Big Mac still looks pretty good, but maybe he'll fix the errors in this one and make an even better Big Mac next time.

I just want to say that I really relate to you on the Big Mac level, I'm a newer writer that does have a paying job, but one day I'd like to be published in the biggest Big Mac market there is, romance. Sure you can laugh because 99.9% of romance novels are pure crap that a 14 year old could write but as you stated, I want to write the best damn Big Mac I can.

[KarmaInferno]

I would point out that there is a big difference between knowing proper anatomy and choosing to stylize or abstract away from it as a conscious decision as an artist, and simply not knowing proper anatomy.

Good artists will learn proper anatomy and choose to use it or not depending on their goals.

Bad artists never bother to learn it, among other bad habits, and wonder why their art never progresses past "amateur" levels.




-k

off and on professional freelance artist

[Patrick Goodman]

I would point out that there is a big difference between knowing proper anatomy and choosing to stylize or abstract away from it as a conscious decision as an artist, and simply not knowing proper anatomy.

Good artists will learn proper anatomy and choose to use it or not depending on their goals.

I think it's been mentioned, but it's a good thing to reiterate it: Good writers learn the rules, too, and then pick and choose when to break them for the best effect. But you have to know the rules before you can break them effectively. Anything else is just a train wreck (and I could show you my first novel as proof, if I hadn't thrown it over the side of a shrimp boat in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico thirty years ago).

But to break the rules and it not be a train wreck, you have to know how to spell, you have to know grammar, you have to know basic style, you have to know how the language works. Until you know that, until you know the basics, you can't make the language work for you. It just won't happen. I'm 46 years old, I've been writing for 30-something of those, and I'm only recently beginning to feel like I've got that part of it down. I can string together some pretty nice sentences, but that's because I've been working on how to make the words work together for a long time. Like KI said, there's a big difference in knowing how to write a simple declarative sentence, and choosing not to, and in not knowing how to write a simple declarative sentence, and rambling on for two pages because you don't know where to put the damn period and start the next sentence. I've seen both. Hell, I've done both.

Okay, that might have been more than people wanted to hear, but there it is anyway.

[Critias]

It's a corny reference to make, I know, but every time this sort of conversation comes up, I remember an episode of that old Young Indiana Jones Chronicles show, an episode called Young Indiana Jones and the Mystery of the Blues (yes, really, bear with me). Indy insists that because jazz is all about improvisation, he doesn't really need to practice anything -- he'll just be improvising anyways, right? -- and then he humiliates himself. Then he spends the whole damned episode practicing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on his soprano sax, over and over and over and really learning the song inside and out, so that he can improvise it later.

I'm cheerfully admit I'm a Big Mac writer, myself. Hell, I'm a 99 cent value menu Junior Bacon Cheeseburger writer. The point stands, either way, though. I have to do all sorts of professional, grammatically correct, academic writing (and grade an awful lot of the same) in my day job. I know the rules. You've got to know the rules before you can choose to throw them away from time to time.

I think the point stands whether you're talking writing, art, or Sean Patrick Flannery playing the blues.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Some of us actually love the 99cent bacon cheeseburgers.

Keep up the good work guys.