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> Dealing with Invisibility
ZeroSpace
post Feb 24 2013, 02:26 AM
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So I've got a shaman in my game that has the Improved Invisibility spell, and it's a favourite among the group as a whole. The only thing is, I'd prefer to not have every session be about how it took what should have been a tricky job and made it a cakewalk. I've got a few thoughts on how to mitigate it's usefulness, like having a mage dispel it when it's cast at Force 2, but I would like some input on the matter, since I can only have mages on astral lookout so often.

Please note, I'm running 3rd edition.
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EKBT81
post Feb 24 2013, 03:15 AM
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It's been some time since I GM'd SR3, but IIRC since Improved Invisibility is an illusion spell, any onlooker can "disbelief" the spell by rolling equal or more successes on an INT test, so low force invisibility can fail without opposition mages around. Also Invisibility doesn't hide sound or smell, so you could equip your security patrols with guard dogs. Also consider detection devices that aren't dependent on sight like sound sensors and pressure plates.

And while a facility might not always have a mage on-site they will call one in from their security provider's headquarters when they notice something weird, like doors opening without someone visible on the surveillance videos.

There's a chapter on facility security in SOTA2063, so that might provide some help if that book is available to you.
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darthmord
post Feb 24 2013, 03:20 AM
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The spell has to beat the object resistance of the sensors & cameras that can perceive it. Force 2 won't cut it.

Likewise, if a person is observing the area with their own (cyber)eyes, there is a check involved. The observer may see through it at Force 2.

I would use any/all of the following in my secure facilities:

1. Ultrasound sensors.
2. Thermal sensors.
3. Motion sensors work great too.
4. Weight sensors on the floor.
5. Cyberware scanners
6. Chemical Scanners
7. Magnetic Anomaly Detectors

Each of those things completely bypass Improved Invisibility. Impr. Invis only stops visible light. So use sensors that don't use light as the sensing medium. Motion sensors are great for this.

Drone sensors are great for picking up the invisible too, especially when they are casting at low levels. Those Drones (and their sensors) have rather high Object Resistances. Low Force ain't gonna cut it.

A good way to teach your players a lesson is to let them sneak in with that Force 2 Impr Invis and have the security forces pretend to not see the party until they get into an easy to corner location and then spring the trap on them, say a grenade (or two) and Chunky Salsa.
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Mercer
post Feb 24 2013, 03:29 AM
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EKBT81 made some good points, so I'll just follow it up with this: if it's valuable enough to pay a mage to steal it, it's valuable enough to pay a mage to protect it. Invisibility doesn't do anything on the astral plane so any astrally active security (watchers, spirits or elementals, or dual-natured guard animals) wouldn't be affected at all.
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Telion
post Feb 24 2013, 07:56 PM
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Dual nature or astrally perceiving automatically see through invis.

spirits, mages, critters all fun.

As mentioned before anything that doesn't use sight can bypass this. Using ultra sound for example. Drones with sensors of ~3 should be able to see right through it.
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_Pax._
post Feb 24 2013, 10:48 PM
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Bog standard Motion Detectors will "see" right through Invisibility, Improved or otherwise - they're not SEEING anything, they're listening. More akin to echolocation than sight.

Similarly, anyone with Ultrasound "vision" would get an echo-map off the invisible person/object, too.

Then there's pressure pads and such, hidden under the carpet (or even built into the marble floors) of whatever location the runner needs to access, and infrasonic trip-"beams", and so on. Basically, anything that doesn't rely on light or EM radiation for detection.
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binarywraith
post Feb 25 2013, 03:22 AM
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Yeah, motion detectors, watcher spirits, paracritters like Hellhounds...

Invisibility isn't that great.
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Manunancy
post Feb 25 2013, 05:52 AM
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Even a regular dog with it's nose and ears can notice something invisible is moving around. And with invisiiblity spell floating around since the Awakening, I'd say all but the dumbest guards will have 'possible invisible intruder' on their mind if their dog starts acting weird.
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sk8bcn
post Feb 25 2013, 09:38 AM
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Invisibility grants a predator style effect. It's a +1 to perception test per success (House rule: I personnaly decided that [Force] is the maximum number of successes that counts).

So 4 successes grants +4.

It's very nice but not OP.

Now add in that the spell is sustained, so if the mage want to make a second PC invisible, his target is at +2. He will roll less successes. and so on.



The spell is very usefull. But doesn't imbalance the game at all. It's a good way to help one non-stealthy character to sneak into a location when the whole group needs to enter.
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Lantzer
post Feb 25 2013, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 25 2013, 10:38 AM) *
(House rule: I personnaly decided that [Force] is the maximum number of successes that counts).


I thought that was a general rule for magic: Force limits hits?
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KarmaInferno
post Feb 25 2013, 06:46 PM
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Absolute best way to deal with invisibility.

Doors.




-k
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 25 2013, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (ZeroSpace @ Feb 23 2013, 09:26 PM) *
So I've got a shaman in my game that has the Improved Invisibility spell, and it's a favourite among the group as a whole. The only thing is, I'd prefer to not have every session be about how it took what should have been a tricky job and made it a cakewalk. I've got a few thoughts on how to mitigate it's usefulness, like having a mage dispel it when it's cast at Force 2, but I would like some input on the matter, since I can only have mages on astral lookout so often.

I'll have to come back to this in more detail, but remember that wards interact with sustained spells. That means that either the mage has to cast the spell inside the ward or they have to bust through and alert the ward's creator.

(Edit: I'm assuming you're not dealing with an Initiate with Masking; if so, like I said, more later.)

~J
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sk8bcn
post Feb 26 2013, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE (Lantzer @ Feb 25 2013, 07:29 PM) *
I thought that was a general rule for magic: Force limits hits?



In 3rd edition, never seen it

p.178

"Force
A spell’s Force represents how much magical energy the caster puts into the spell, which determines the power and effectiveness of the spell. Spellcasters learn spells at a specific Force. They can cast the spell at a lower Force, if desired, but can never cast the spell at a higher Force than they have learned. The minimum Force for any spell is 1. Characters who want to increase the Force of a spell must re-learn the spell. See Learning Spells on p. 180. The higher the Force of a spell, the greater its potential effectand the harder it is for the target to resist. High-Force spells are also more fatiguing to cast. When choosing the Force of a spell, you must strike a balance between its effectiveness and your character’s ability to absorb the Drain of the spellcasting."

In the following rules, no mention of that neither.

It just made Force useless for most spells.
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Blade
post Feb 26 2013, 09:40 AM
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Don't forget that vision isn't everything. A runner with all his gear will often be a little noisy when moving around. Doors are also a good and cheap way to hinder people using invisibility spells (or ruthenium polymer suits)
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sk8bcn
post Feb 26 2013, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Feb 26 2013, 10:40 AM) *
Don't forget that vision isn't everything. A runner with all his gear will often be a little noisy when moving around. Doors are also a good and cheap way to hinder people using invisibility spells (or ruthenium polymer suits)


You are NOT invisible anyway. Fog is +4 to TN which equals to 4 success in an invisible spellcasting, low light +6.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 26 2013, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 26 2013, 05:58 AM) *
You are NOT invisible anyway. Fog is +4 to TN which equals to 4 success in an invisible spellcasting, low light +6.

You're thinking of Camouflage. Invis and II are what they sound like, and jump straight to the +8 Blind Fire.

(Still more later)

~J
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Kliko
post Feb 26 2013, 11:59 AM
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- Use suppresive fire from sentry guns (loaded with gel rounds)
- Use air lock systems and non-lethal gas in case intruders are detected
- Use area denial/effect weapons
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sk8bcn
post Feb 26 2013, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 26 2013, 12:50 PM) *
You're thinking of Camouflage. Invis and II are what they sound like, and jump straight to the +8 Blind Fire.

(Still more later)

~J

Uh! You're right. Did I house rule that long time ago or what?

That's what written:

"INDIRECT ILLUSION SPELLS
Indirect illusion spells manipulate energy to create an illusionary
image or sound or other sense-based effect, fooling the
senses. They must be cast “around” a person, or over an area
(Magic rating in meters) that is within the caster’s line of sight.
All indirect illusions are resisted by Intelligence.
Invisibility
Type: M • Target: 4 • Duration: S • Drain: M
Improved Invisibility
Type: P • Target: 4 • Duration: S • Drain: +1(M)
This spell makes the subject invisible to normal vision. The
subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other
senses. Their aura is still visible to astral perception.
Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Blind Fire modifier
(p. 111) if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense
the target of the spell.
Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility
affects technological sensors as well."


Hell it sucks. That means it's totally unreliable. Should 1 single NPC roll a good Intelligence test and *zip*, the PC is seen by him. And what about a device?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 26 2013, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 26 2013, 02:26 AM) *
In 3rd edition, never seen it

p.178

"Force
A spell’s Force represents how much magical energy the caster puts into the spell, which determines the power and effectiveness of the spell. Spellcasters learn spells at a specific Force. They can cast the spell at a lower Force, if desired, but can never cast the spell at a higher Force than they have learned. The minimum Force for any spell is 1. Characters who want to increase the Force of a spell must re-learn the spell. See Learning Spells on p. 180. The higher the Force of a spell, the greater its potential effectand the harder it is for the target to resist. High-Force spells are also more fatiguing to cast. When choosing the Force of a spell, you must strike a balance between its effectiveness and your character’s ability to absorb the Drain of the spellcasting."

In the following rules, no mention of that neither.

It just made Force useless for most spells.


Besides the Fact that a Force 1 Improved Invisibility Spell with 8 successes (in SR3) was impossible to actually resist if your Intelligence Attribute was less than 8. This is why the tactic is so successful. Many spells work better at Force 1 than at higher forces because once you accumulated more hits than the resistance attribute, you need not worry (and you tended to accumulate more hits with a Low Force Spell than a High Force spell). We had a Magician who played on that very aspect of the system. He was frighteningly successful, even if there were other ways to counter the effects of the spell.
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binarywraith
post Feb 26 2013, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Kliko @ Feb 26 2013, 05:59 AM) *
- Use suppresive fire from sentry guns (loaded with gel rounds)
- Use air lock systems and non-lethal gas in case intruders are detected
- Use area denial/effect weapons



Simpler solution that costs the corp less. Give the guards a paintball gun, and instructions to hose the hallway with it should they ever suspect something invisible. If they're wrong, the worst it costs is a mopping.
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Manunancy
post Feb 27 2013, 05:41 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Feb 26 2013, 03:52 PM) *
Simpler solution that costs the corp less. Give the guards a paintball gun, and instructions to hose the hallway with it should they ever suspect something invisible. If they're wrong, the worst it costs is a mopping.


That could even be automated - have a fixed drone with a camera and a non-visual sensor (radar or ultrasound) along with a repeating paintbal gun. If there's a mismatch between the sensors, hose the mismatched area.

I can get messy if it's hacked, but nothing too bad.
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EKBT81
post Feb 27 2013, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Feb 26 2013, 03:52 PM) *
Simpler solution that costs the corp less. Give the guards a paintball gun, and instructions to hose the hallway with it should they ever suspect something invisible. If they're wrong, the worst it costs is a mopping.

I'm unsure how effective that would exactly be. SR3 BBB states that "Invisibility affects the minds of viewers". So one could contend that any random hits with paintball pellets would also end up being covered by the illusion. Guards might notice if splashes disappear from view, but any intruders that move out of the paint gun's field of fire would be just as invisible as before.
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sk8bcn
post Feb 27 2013, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Feb 26 2013, 03:52 PM) *
Simpler solution that costs the corp less. Give the guards a paintball gun, and instructions to hose the hallway with it should they ever suspect something invisible. If they're wrong, the worst it costs is a mopping.



As a player, I would find it, ermmm, totally shitty. And probably added unfairly because I abused the rule.
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Bigity
post Feb 27 2013, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 26 2013, 08:29 AM) *
Besides the Fact that a Force 1 Improved Invisibility Spell with 8 successes (in SR3) was impossible to actually resist if your Intelligence Attribute was less than 8. This is why the tactic is so successful. Many spells work better at Force 1 than at higher forces because once you accumulated more hits than the resistance attribute, you need not worry (and you tended to accumulate more hits with a Low Force Spell than a High Force spell). We had a Magician who played on that very aspect of the system. He was frighteningly successful, even if there were other ways to counter the effects of the spell.


Why would you get any difference in successes based on the force? TN is either fixed or resisted.

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Epicedion
post Feb 27 2013, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Feb 27 2013, 12:20 PM) *
Why would you get any difference in successes based on the force? TN is either fixed or resisted.


Right. Improved Invis is a TN 4 no matter the force. Also to affect cameras you have to cast it at least at Force 4 (half or higher the object resistance of 8 for electronic items).

Ideally you'd want to cast it at Force 9 to pretty much negate the chance of anyone getting enough successes to resist, but that would come with 5M physical drain.
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