[X] My Assistant

[DeathStrobe]

So I had this idea for a mage that has no arms. But since astrally perceiving makes you exist in both astral and physical space; if he never gets ware then his arms should still exist in astral space. And if his arms still exist in astral then he can still touch dual natured things, like a weapon foci.

I'm thinking of making a troll shaman, who has harden gloves that are weapon foci that he uses to punch things. While having crazy Rayman like floating hands seems kind of cool, I think it'd be cooler if he had a geas that made it so that he had to manifest his arms so that he'd have ghost hands. And since adepts and mystic adepts can't project; they also can't manifest and so can't have ghost arms. So I think I have to go mage or shaman. I figured I'd lean towards shaman, and go with an American Indian tradition.

While I'm sure I could always house rule this in to existence, I don't think that there is anything that prevents this from working with the RAW. Anyway, figured I'd go and get a bit of feed back on the idea.

[DamHawke]

I'd love to see how this character would be statted out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mantis]

Basic problem is that without real meat arms, you couldn't hold the weapon foci to activate it in the first place, which means it wouldn't be in astral space to hold. I suppose someone could lay the weapon on you and then you could activate it. But you'd need a helping hand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) to set that up.

As far as having arms in astral space, you astral form is supposed to be your idealized version of you (why it uses mental stats) but as it says in the astral form section (pg 193 SR4A), If the magician’s physical body was injured when she astrally projects, her astral body manifests the same wounds.
I'd take this to mean if you had no arms in meat space, you won't on the astral either.

As a full on Shaman (or magician of any sort) you would be better off just blasting astral targets with a stun bolt or something rather than engaging in astral combat, since this prevents your opponent from counter attacking (unless they are also magicians or have magic guard). If they are magicians, well a focus of that type can be quite useful, but you can get by without it.

[SpellBinder]

Does pose an interesting question that just came to mind. When active, foci are dual natured. When astrally perceiving, the magician/mystic/adept is also dual natured. What if an adept's idealized astral self has arms/tentacles/whatever that could be used to manipulate objects and same said adept has a bonded weapon focus that is active? Would said paraplegic adept be able to perceive astrally and then use said weapon focus in meat space combat (along with the standard -2 DP penalty)?

[DeathStrobe]

Basic problem is that without real meat arms, you couldn't hold the weapon foci to activate it in the first place, which means it wouldn't be in astral space to hold. I suppose someone could lay the weapon on you and then you could activate it. But you'd need a helping hand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) to set that up.

As far as having arms in astral space, you astral form is supposed to be your idealized version of you (why it uses mental stats) but as it says in the astral form section (pg 193 SR4A), If the magician’s physical body was injured when she astrally projects, her astral body manifests the same wounds.
I'd take this to mean if you had no arms in meat space, you won't on the astral either.

As a full on Shaman (or magician of any sort) you would be better off just blasting astral targets with a stun bolt or something rather than engaging in astral combat, since this prevents your opponent from counter attacking (unless they are also magicians or have magic guard). If they are magicians, well a focus of that type can be quite useful, but you can get by without it.

Curses, I knew it was too cool of an idea to just work like that. I missed that wounds are mirrored on the astral.

I did think through needing to have physical contact by keeping the gloves in my character's pants, so he can activate them and reach in with his astral arms to pick them up.

As for better off casting, that's no fun. Punching people with ghost arms, now that's fun. But I guess I can't do that with RAW. Unless I can find a way to make an astral construct out of my severed arms. It just seems like such a cool idea.

I guess I can use magic fingers too...but...doesn't sound as amazing. Also that'd be completely independent of my strength attribute and if that's the case, I don't need to be a troll anymore to maximize punching.

[Mantis]

A troll astrally projecting is a wimp anyway. Remember, Charisma is strength in Astral Space so guess who the big burly guys are on the astral? Yup, the elves.
I know it does provide a cool sort of image but unfortunately the rules don't really support it. Why exactly did you want a character with no arms? Just for that imagery or was there some more story driven reason?

[Lionhearted]

Basic problem is that without real meat arms, you couldn't hold the weapon foci to activate it in the first place, which means it wouldn't be in astral space to hold. I suppose someone could lay the weapon on you and then you could activate it. But you'd need a helping hand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) to set that up.

You'd be amazed what some people can do with their feet or mouth

[DeathStrobe]

A troll astrally projecting is a wimp anyway. Remember, Charisma is strength in Astral Space so guess who the big burly guys are on the astral? Yup, the elves.
I know it does provide a cool sort of image but unfortunately the rules don't really support it. Why exactly did you want a character with no arms? Just for that imagery or was there some more story driven reason?

Imagery first, story/context second.

[KarmaInferno]

Hm. This does raise up the specter, though...

If astral-only hands can hold Foci, due to them being dual-natured, what's to stop a mage from projecting, picking up a weapon focus, and attacking mundane folks on the physical while being more or less immune to counterattack?

A major balancing point of Manifestation is that it can't affect the physical world. You need Materialization for that.




-k

[Mantis]

Astral only hands could not hold a focus on the material plane, in the same way a dual natured being can not stand on a mana barrier. The focus itself would be better thought of as astrally projecting with the magician, leaving its physical form behind just like the magician does. The physical form of the weapon does not travel around in the physical as the magician moves around with its astral counterpart in the astral.

[DeathStrobe]

Astral only hands could not hold a focus on the material plane, in the same way a dual natured being can not stand on a mana barrier. The focus itself would be better thought of as astrally projecting with the magician, leaving its physical form behind just like the magician does. The physical form of the weapon does not travel around in the physical as the magician moves around with its astral counterpart in the astral.

What if I was a projecting mage and picked up a ghoul? Would I have forced the ghoul to project as well, leaving his body behind?

[ShadowDragon8685]

What if I was a projecting mage and picked up a ghoul? Would I have forced the ghoul to project as well, leaving his body behind?

First you'd have to be enough of a luchadore to subdue a vicious ghoul in astral combat without killing it (and thus making it lose its dual nature.)

Then you'd have to somehow prevent the Star from supermurdering the ghoul you're using to chase people down the street with (thus making it lose its dual nature.)

That would be a bloody hilarious terror weapon, though, smacking people with the pointy end of a pissed-off ghoul that's thrashing and squirming in mid-air.

[Mantis]

What if I was a projecting mage and picked up a ghoul? Would I have forced the ghoul to project as well, leaving his body behind?

No, you couldn't pick up a ghoul as a projecting mage. The only reason you can even touch the ghoul is because he is astrally present but you wouldn't be able to pick him up nor force him project, though as ShadowDragon points out, that would be hilarious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
With a dual natured being their astral and physical selves just happen to occupy the same space all the time. They are still essentially separate as far as your interactions go, in that if you attack it you are going for its astral self and the damage you inflict gets mirrored to its physical self. A projecting mage couldn't pick the ghoul's pocket for example. Those Astrally Perceiving or dual natured do break this rule a bit in that they use physical attributes and skills to attack an astral target but they are supposedly limited by their material flesh by doing so (less natural IPs, slower movement, etc).
The ghoul wouldn't be forced to astrally project because that isn't something they can normally do and it has to be a conscious choice to project anyway (out side of some nasty spirit powers). All you would do by grabbing him is force a grapple where he would claw the ever-living shit out of you until one or the other of you lets go or dies.

[DeathStrobe]

No, you couldn't pick up a ghoul as a projecting mage. The only reason you can even touch the ghoul is because he is astrally present but you wouldn't be able to pick him up nor force him project, though as ShadowDragon points out, that would be hilarious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
With a dual natured being their astral and physical selves just happen to occupy the same space all the time. They are still essentially separate as far as your interactions go, in that if you attack it you are going for its astral self and the damage you inflict gets mirrored to its physical self. A projecting mage couldn't pick the ghoul's pocket for example. Those Astrally Perceiving or dual natured do break this rule a bit in that they use physical attributes and skills to attack an astral target but they are supposedly limited by their material flesh by doing so (less natural IPs, slower movement, etc).
The ghoul wouldn't be forced to astrally project because that isn't something they can normally do and it has to be a conscious choice to project anyway (out side of some nasty spirit powers). All you would do by grabbing him is force a grapple where he would claw the ever-living shit out of you until one or the other of you lets go or dies.

So you're telling me I can make a ghoul and adept/mystic adept that is astrally perceiving, fly at the speed of thought if a mage/spirit grabs them. This seems slightly problematic.

[ShadowDragon8685]

So you're telling me I can make a ghoul and adept/mystic adept that is astrally perceiving, fly at the speed of thought if a mage/spirit grabs them. This seems slightly problematic.

That's exactly what he's not saying.

Which is sad, because I think accelerating a person to astral speeds in atmosphere would cause them to ablate.

[Mantis]

Exactly. Also more cool imagery on ShadowDragon's part. Ablating ghouls... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Exactly. Also more cool imagery on ShadowDragon's part. Ablating ghouls... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Would be a great way to spread HMHVV, assuming you don't accelerate them to the sort of speeds that cause them to burst into plasma.

That said... What happens if a projecting magician astrally-tackles a dual-natured critter at thought speeds? What kind of mass does a projected magician have?

[Lionhearted]

Don't think the laws of physics quite apply metaplanary, thought speed tackle would be like getting hit by a proverbial train rather then a literal one

[Mantis]

Yeah, as far as I know, astral beings have no mass so a tackle would just result in you stopping as you can't pass through another astral or dual natured being. Wouldn't hurt either as you have no mass.

[ShadowDragon8685]

So, surprise astral tackles would be the greatest way to glomp someone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, surprise astral tackles would be the greatest way to glomp someone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Glomp?

[Halinn]

Glomp?

glomp (third-person singular simple present glomps, present participle glomping, simple past and past participle glomped)
1. (slang, transitive) to embrace enthusiastically; to pounce on and hug, often from a running start.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ahh... I see... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

That... is such a useful word, I love it!
Oh english and your love for having different words for nuances of the same thing, like smirk... I love that word it describes a particular type of devious smile in a single word! Brilliant!

[Mantis]

That's what happens when you let a poet and playwright create a bunch of your words. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) T.J.'s James D. Nicoll quote in his sig explains the rest of it.