Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[Pepsi Jedi]

If New Coke didn't kill Coca-cola co..... lol And as pointed out the diversification would mitigate the damage even more.

I agree it's bad. I totally see where the writers were going. I think it was exaggerated (( It's a role playing game. Things ARE going to be exaggerated, X 100!)). My problem is it seems to be exaggerated X1,000,000, vs just x100.

Can I see the horrible malfunctioning gun make people question their next gun purchase? Sure. I can dig it. Can I see a bad gun purchase make people question the victory clothing line? No. Stop buying Ares bread or soy-meat? No. Or make the military suddenly yank it's contracts? No. Those contracts usually have so many millions and millions in kickbacks, that the product is almost if not quite literally free to the governments in question. Nor would I see one bad gun, suddenly make people rush to the banks to trade in their corp script for something else.

A string of bad guns.. 5.. 10 horrible releases, assault rifles and pistols or shotguns. Just gun after gun after gun. I could see that truly affecting a company as THAT would erode customer confidence, but one bad product, is.. well. Just one bad product. Unless it's your first or second product ever, it's not going to suddenly throw you under the dragon. Ares has decades of being reliable and the ultimate gun co. One product failure, even one you'd spent millions on, wouldn't ripple THIS badly.

[Nath]

It's even dumb from a purely gun perspective. H&K, Colt, Armalite, Smith & Wesson... these are all household names in firearms, and all have produced at least one really, really shitty gun over their history that somehow utterly failed to significantly hurt them. None of these companies are even 1% as diversified as the assets of a AAA Megacorp.

Hell, yeah. After the M16 was fielded in Vietnam in 1965, there were so many reports of dead soldiers with a jammed M16 next to their body that the story went up to the Congress and Time Magazine. Colt? Still around.

[Fatum]

Or make the military suddenly yank it's contracts? No. Those contracts usually have so many millions and millions in kickbacks, that the product is almost if not quite literally free to the governments in question. Nor would I see one bad gun, suddenly make people rush to the banks to trade in their corp script for something else.

Actually, most corp contracts are not even that easy to get out of. You have the whole infrastructure hanging on the vendor's support, and you need new versions, updates, etc. Whenever you move into a new area, you have to choose your vendor's solution because only it works with the tech you already have. So switching to another vendor's stuff is a major project that's costing you a lot, even omitting the costs of breaking long-term contracts or dropping long-term common projects.
That is especially funny with Ares losing contracts, say, in space. Come on, companies might reconsider using Ares brand rockets to go up the well, but finding a new supplier, signing intercorp contracts, doing all the tech prep work for the launches making everything work together is taking months if not years, and THAT is when Ares bottom line can be hit.

[bannockburn]

One needs to ask themselves:
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.

[Fatum]

It was too busy bleeding to object!

[RHat]

I really wonder what Frosty and Erhan said to him to get him call off his big, rage fulled "I don't care if the world dies" revenge crusade so close to the climax (or not that close if you believe Puck).

Based on some of the fiction in previous books that was leading up to this, well...

His motivation here was revenge due to Aina Dupree dying when Ghostwalker closed the Rift. But based on the short stories that had him talking with people like Lugh Surehand and, for that matter, Ghostwalker, she's not actually dead, and he's the only one who doesn't know it. File this one under Poor Communication Kills, perhaps?

For reference, Ghostwalker actually acknowledges in his little bit of fiction that Harley wouldn't listen to him. Surehand doesn't figure out what the deal is until after he leaves, if I remember right.

[ Spoiler ]

As for the Excalibur, the rep hit comes for a few reasons. One, the Excalibur is more likely to kill you than the enemy. Two, based on Ares' reputation, people were putting their lives in Ares' hands; it's a betrayal of trust. Imagine the Apple Maps debacle, had it somehow resulted in the deaths of most of its users. Three, some people are now wondering, given the amount of effort that went into keeping this under wraps, if this even is a lone incident, or if there were several others that they just managed to keep the lid on.

[Fatum]

Quick side note on Ancient Files: you're in luck if you decide to browse them today: my home ISP has been dead for a week, leaving me with only my LTE provider's access over the pad (and thus, obviously, the Ancient Files went offline along with my home server). Everything's back starting today.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One needs to ask themselves:
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.

It's actually covered. The problems where there, and some where along the line, the email went out to go into full production and they'd 'fix it in manufacturing' and on the manufacturing side, they got no notes to fix anything, so they were making the guns 100% to Spec.

It's just that the specs that were given, were horribly flawed. It's directly stated that it had to be sabotage of some sort. Internal or external (Shadowrun) As the "Go ahead" order never originated from anyone on the design, or manufacture side.

I can't speak with 100% conviction, but most (real life) guns I know get fired once, in quality control. They often will pack the shell in with new firearms. So on manufacturing side, if the first shot is fine, it's fine. While the stats for the Excalibur do have a 1 in 3 chance of shooting fine, it's probably after they've been broken in. That 'First shot" Will likely work most every time. It's the second or third magazine when it starts breaking down.

[bannockburn]

Yes. 'Covered'.

[Pepsi Jedi]

[ Spoiler ]

As for the Excalibur, the rep hit comes for a few reasons. One, the Excalibur is more likely to kill you than the enemy.

But... not really. While the fluff does describe it blowing up in the hand, the actual roll tables do not.
1: Jam 2: Overheated/warped barrel 3: Shoots left+Jam 4: Shoots right and grazes target 5: Hits intended target but with fewer bullets. (Shoots normal for simi-automatic) 6: Works fine.

So... while the fluff says some have blown, more likely is that it jammed or overheated in combat. Which might 'get you killed' as in the chapter's starting fiction, but "Killing you" Isn't a normal option. It'd be the Storyteller stepping in sort of thing.

Two, based on Ares' reputation, people were putting their lives in Ares' hands; it's a betrayal of trust.

Ehhh, yeah, but again it's one product of thousands if not tens of thousands. It'd be like never shopping at walmart ever again if you got a bad DVD.

Imagine the Apple Maps debacle, had it somehow resulted in the deaths of most of its users.

But just like apple maps. you can use a different map... or a different gun. If you go into battle with an untested weapon, then that's totally on you. Even the best gun manufacturer in the world has duds now and then. Shooting at the range is one thing. If it jams. Ew!! What a piece of crap! If you take one out of the box and rush into battle with out putting a few hundred rounds through it, that's user stupidity. Yeah Ares is going to get blamed for it, but anyone with remotely any combat experience is going to go "Did it do that when you were breaking it in/testing it out?" and when you go "I didn't break it in or test it" they're going to look at who ever did that like they're a schmuck.

Three, some people are now wondering, given the amount of effort that went into keeping this under wraps, if this even is a lone incident, or if there were several others that they just managed to keep the lid on.

Yeah but noone knows that other than a few shadowrunners who have researched it or are on elite boards like Jackpoint. That's well and good but the number is very very very very small. You're talking a few 100, to 1000 at the top end. If a megacorp lost 1000 customers from one day to the next, it wouldn't even pop up on their radar. I mean how often do you drop a grand or two for a rifle? Once every couple months? Even if you do so more often, it's just not a large enough customer base, to justify the loss.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yes. 'Covered'.

"Addressed" ?

[Inu]

Hell, yeah. After the M16 was fielded in Vietnam in 1965, there were so many reports of dead soldiers with a jammed M16 next to their body that the story went up to the Congress and Time Magazine. Colt? Still around.

History's full of this sort of thing. Note that not only is Colt still around, but they kept selling M16s, even though it took many, many years before it ended up being a halfway-decent product. So not only are they still around, but they still sold that exact same weapon.

(Also see: Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR. After building military bases with faulty wiring that, among other things, caused the death of service personnel in showers, they continued getting contracts to build US military bases.)

A problem a lot of people have in fiction is understanding scale. Star Wars is rife with this, too (such as single planets that produce the majority of the galaxy's <x>). Shadowrun features corporations with massive GDPs -- scale is important to remember, but easy to forget.

A current example: the F-35 is under attack on many fronts, and may end up being a lemon. It's an enormous project, far bigger than any rifle -- and no-one is talking about Lockheed-Martin going under because of it. L-M might, worse comes to worst, need to cop a loss on it. Chances re they'll still make an enormous profit, just not as big a one as they were hoping to.

Ares could hand out gun-shaped grenades that are set off by pulling the trigger, and sell them as guns, and this STILL wouldn't sink them.

[RHat]

[ Spoiler ]

But... not really. While the fluff does describe it blowing up in the hand, the actual roll tables do not.
1: Jam 2: Overheated/warped barrel 3: Shoots left+Jam 4: Shoots right and grazes target 5: Hits intended target but with fewer bullets. (Shoots normal for simi-automatic) 6: Works fine.

So... while the fluff says some have blown, more likely is that it jammed or overheated in combat. Which might 'get you killed' as in the chapter's starting fiction, but "Killing you" Isn't a normal option. It'd be the Storyteller stepping in sort of thing.

Yeah, but we're talking about a fluff thing, not a crunch thing - so, I'm inclined to say it's the crunch that's wrong in this case.

Ehhh, yeah, but again it's one product of thousands if not tens of thousands. It'd be like never shopping at walmart ever again if you got a bad DVD.

But a bad DVD doesn't get me killed. It's a very big difference.

But just like apple maps. you can use a different map... or a different gun. If you go into battle with an untested weapon, then that's totally on you. Even the best gun manufacturer in the world has duds now and then. Shooting at the range is one thing. If it jams. Ew!! What a piece of crap! If you take one out of the box and rush into battle with out putting a few hundred rounds through it, that's user stupidity. Yeah Ares is going to get blamed for it, but anyone with remotely any combat experience is going to go "Did it do that when you were breaking it in/testing it out?" and when you go "I didn't break it in or test it" they're going to look at who ever did that like they're a schmuck.

Yes, I do question the idea that they didn't train with the specific weapon on the range for a bit. However, apparently that's how much they trusted Ares. It is breaking that trust that is hurting them.

Yeah but noone knows that other than a few shadowrunners who have researched it or are on elite boards like Jackpoint. That's well and good but the number is very very very very small. You're talking a few 100, to 1000 at the top end. If a megacorp lost 1000 customers from one day to the next, it wouldn't even pop up on their radar. I mean how often do you drop a grand or two for a rifle? Once every couple months? Even if you do so more often, it's just not a large enough customer base, to justify the loss.

Why would we assume that only runners are asking that sort of question? It's not like the populace at large isn't aware of the idea that corps cover things up - they've certainly seen enough cover ups fall apart to be aware of that. Emergence is a prime example.

And speaking of Emergence, it's entirely possible there's another corporation making sure that this stays in the collective consciousness, intentionally planting the seeds of doubt...

As to the Colt example... They were still using the M1911 at the time, were they not?

[Angelone]

The reason Puck is on Jackpoint, from Conspiracy Theories.

Part of the reason he recruited Puck was to ensure that there weren’t other means that he couldn’t predict that technomancers might be able to find.

Also cause I like him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fatum]

A current example: the F-35 is under attack on many fronts, and may end up being a lemon. It's an enormous project, far bigger than any rifle -- and no-one is talking about Lockheed-Martin going under because of it. L-M might, worse comes to worst, need to cop a loss on it. Chances re they'll still make an enormous profit, just not as big a one as they were hoping to.

Actually, it was my understand they're making a profit working for the govt regardless of the outcome, no?

Anyway, frankly, the whole Excalibur debacle is less silly than Knight's latest research. Seriously? After all the previous history Ares had? He of all people should know better.

[Angelone]

I agree you'd think the Azzies would be the ones to play with that fire. With their (word I don't know) for dangerous magic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

[ Spoiler ]

Yeah, but we're talking about a fluff thing, not a crunch thing - so, I'm inclined to say it's the crunch that's wrong in this case.

Well the thing is a piece of crap, but the 'dramatic failures' seem to be a bit hyperbolic, or.. ST cravat. The failure that you can replicate is jams or warped barrels.

But a bad DVD doesn't get me killed. It's a very big difference.

Again this is a sort of small debateable thing. If you take the gun into the field and you pull the trigger and it jams and you get shot the next second. Yes the gun 'got you killed' but if you took that same gun into the field untested... didn't YOU get you killed?

Yes, I do question the idea that they didn't train with the specific weapon on the range for a bit. However, apparently that's how much they trusted Ares. It is breaking that trust that is hurting them.

Indeed, but it's still gross user stupidity. You just don't DO that. If your life depends on a bit of equipment, you test it before your life is DEPENDING on that bit of equipment. I don't care if you're a Shadowrunner, or a Military troop, or a CorpSec guard, or a Stuffer Shack manager with a Predator under the counter for robbers. You always, --always-- check them before "Using" them. And not just one shot either.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't trust my own MOTHER that much. Just like any time you pick up a firearm you treat it as loaded. Even if you unloaded it 5 minutes ago, if you ever took your eye off it, it could be loaded again. You never enter combat with an untested weapon. You might as well put it to your head and pull the trigger.

Why would we assume that only runners are asking that sort of question? It's not like the populace at large isn't aware of the idea that corps cover things up - they've certainly seen enough cover ups fall apart to be aware of that. Emergence is a prime example.

I'm not saying they're the only ones that would ask. I'm saying they're the only ones with any proof of such. The average law abiding citizen doesn't know there WAS a cover up. They just know that it was hyped and it failed. So they wouldn't suspect repeated cover ups, if they didn't have the jumping off point.

And speaking of Emergence, it's entirely possible there's another corporation making sure that this stays in the collective consciousness, intentionally planting the seeds of doubt...

Of that, We can be quite sure. lol

[RHat]

The user stupidity point: Apparently, based on the text, people actually did that. See: The opening of the chapter.

It's also important to note that since their problem is doubt, proof is irrelevant.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The user stupidity point: Apparently, based on the text, people actually did that. See: The opening of the chapter.

Now he knows why one doesn't do that! Proof of point!

Course.. the fool went into a house with manifested bug spirits alone too... gotta say he wasn't long for the world either way. lol.

[RHat]

Yep. The point, though, is that as stupid as it is, people thought that they could get away with it because its Ares, which makes the damage a lot worse.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yep. The point, though, is that as stupid as it is, people thought that they could get away with it because its Ares, which makes the damage a lot worse.

Mmmmm, yes.... Stupid People make everything worse for the rest of us.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just finished First Among Equals
The Artful Dodger, and
Sleeping with the Enemy

First Among Equals.

[ Spoiler ]

Eh..... ok? Looks like this one was pure set up for the SR5 Kickoff. We get the election results in the Tir.. a bit of speculation about the 15 or so Telestrian's, and that it's going more or less like it was when there was an Orc in charge, but now with an Elf. I'm hoping this was a transition so that something can be done with it in 5E.

The Artful Dodger

[ Spoiler ]

Again... Ehh.. ok. Kinda neat, but I'm not really sure how this can be used by players. In a fluff book that's ok. Some things are just enjoying to read. Dodger is apparently very good, maybe a Technomancer. He's looking for his lost AI love. Which is cool. He's been working White Hat for alot of corps. I can see alot of back doors being built in, but with the New Matrix coming out, one wonders if it would be very useful. You gotta think all that security will need to be redone to maximize it's effectiveness with the New Matrix.
So.. eh... not bad.

Sleeping with the Enemy:

Patrick. Good work man.

[ Spoiler ]

Very fun chapter. It's making one feel for Hannabelle. And I'm totally picking up the 'Southern' vibe from her too. Name, Baptist, going on her church trip etc. She feels Southern to me too. Which is fine. I feel sorry for her and what she's going through. (That being said I very likely wouldn't invite her to dinner or anything.).

As for the other infected... I'm very curious as to where this is going. I love the concept of the infected. The depths that they must sink to. The struggle to retain their humanity while forced to do inhumane things. You saw that in Hannabelle in this chapter. It wasn't gross. It wasn't in your face. It was the little things. The things you gotta read close to get or they might pass ya by. Sucks to be them. Truly. And it seems, as if it's not bad enough that innocent people who contract this sickness.. forced to eat human flesh or drink their blood etc, now, it's suddenly getting worse. No rhyme nor reason. And as it gets worse, the mind naturally goes to "Well, it's apparently getting worse for no reason... how --much-- worse can it get.

The answer of course is 'LOTS WORSE!!'. So I'm curious to see this one play out. Looking forward to the ride. Hey Patrick, if you get the option. Give us something with a non feral Wendigo, before it's all said and done, please!

[RHat]

First Among Equals

[ Spoiler ]

Reads as pure setup, but I'd like to point something out - one of the princes is a J. Foster. Frosty's real name is Jane Foster. Has she been a Tír Prince this entire time and I just didn't know it, is this new, or is that a different J. Foster?

Artful Dodger

[ Spoiler ]

Another one that reads as setup - I'm guessing for something involving the old-school AI's coming back on the scene, which could be very interesting.

Sleeping with the Enemy - just want to echo that this one was a very good read.

[ Spoiler ]

I really think pretty much everything in this book that isn't wrapping up an existing plot is setting up a new one. All the "fear the night" stuff, and the exposure of De Vries, could go to interesting places. I do think they should have contracted some Game Information for this chapter - details on the change to Infected Allergies, rejection of 'ware, that kind of thing. I mean, I'd like to be able to use some of this transitional plot to run a transitional game, but that leaves me with a lot to do on my own, ya know?

[NeoJudas]

Trying once more to get things back to Storm Front: Does anyone have any theories as to what, exactly, the thing that is the subject of the Cracks chapter actually is? Any suggestions for how a GM might go about introducing such a thing into his game? I'm very much planning on doing just that, but not sure how I want to go about it yet.

Is it annoying that no such mechanics were included? YMMV (I certainly didn't expect them to stat the new SR5 stuff in Storm Front), but clearly we can't have that discussion and stay on topic. So please don't. Or if you must, take it to another thread.

I had a dork idea the other night during an insomnia flare-up. What if SEARCH is something akin to the old helper program used during the first Crash period to battle the first virus? I also had to ask something weird. Goes with the whole 'Metasapients Rights' argument really. Can an AI "die" and become an eGhost???

[CanRay]

I had a dork idea the other night during an insomnia flare-up. What if SEARCH is something akin to the old helper program used during the first Crash period to battle the first virus? I also had to ask something weird. Goes with the whole 'Metasapients Rights' argument really. Can an AI "die" and become an eGhost???

I have a worse idea for you...

What if Clippy became an AI?