Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[Critias]

Denver, right?

Nnnnope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hermit]

Whew. ^^ A story?

(If you're not subscribed to the SR Missions Facebook page, I posted a teaser of one of the Season 5 Contacts/NPCs there already, and more will be going up in the near future. I tend to use Facebook for most of my sneak peeks and teasers smile.gif)

*deep sigh*

Used my rarely-if-ever used FB account and couldn't even figure out how to follow the page. Please a how-to?

[Ixal]

@Sengir

He could have slapped the dragon and told it off, then glared at humans, and be done with it. A life for a life seems very, very off for Keyser "Lofwyr" Soze.

As Pepsi pointed out you got the story pretty much completely wrong.
It wasn't Lofwyr who ordered the execution and it wasn't done because any love for humans.

[hermit]

As Pepsi pointed out you got the story pretty much completely wrong.
It wasn't Lofwyr who ordered the execution and it wasn't done because any love for humans.

Pepsi, who showed the lack of care he accuses me of in not being able to get Scale's name right, decides to nitpick a summary where I didn't care to retell every small event, is contradicting himself (no, the dragon wasn't executed on order of Lofwyr, but on his standing order of nonviolence or else), and doesn't even understand the problem in characterisation. The problem being that Lofwyr executing a dragon just like that makes him consider dragon lives as cheap as human lives. Which violates everything he supposedly believes in. Which makes me wonder where the dramatic shift in personality came from, if not just lazy/bad writing.

For reference:

SCALES, the Drake

[Ixal]

Pepsi, who showed the lack of care he accuses me of in not being able to get Scale's name right, decides to nitpick a summary where I didn't care to retell every small event, is contradicting himself (no, the dragon wasn't executed on order of Lofwyr, but on his standing order of nonviolence or else), and doesn't even understand the problem in characterisation. The problem being that Lofwyr executing a dragon just like that makes him consider dragon lives as cheap as human lives. Which violates everything he supposedly believes in. Which makes me wonder where the dramatic shift in personality came from, if not just lazy/bad writing.

For reference:

And thats why your review is in my eyes rubbish. You are making stuff up just to justify your hate for the book.
Lofwyr having someone killed because he openly defied his orders is out of character? Really?

And Pepsi is not nitpicking, but simply pointing out the many things you got wrong. And that has nothing to do with you leaving out details, but that the details you tell about do not happen that way in the book.

[bannockburn]

IMO, the problem isn't with a drake (even a trusted lieutenant) ordering the execution of a dragon over the death of a human.
The problem is with the loremaster of all dragonkind not having a formal accusation and rendition of the sentence regarding Alamaise. Lofwyr just goes out there, hires a few hundred runners and mercs and doles out some good ol' fashioned vigilante justice. The problems started in the corresponding chapter in Clutch. He could just as well have had a disciplined force in form of SK Prime assets, supported by corp forces and then forced other dragons to support his views and have even more support from their side by dint of him being the loremaster.
It is clearly not only a personal matter between Lofwyr and Alamaise but rather something that affects the traditions and way of life of all dragons world wide, so by definition something that falls in the area of responsibility of the loremaster.

Instead, this chapter is what happened. I'm less than impressed with it and how it was resolved.

[hermit]

@Ixial:
If it was a dragon: yes. Really.

Fun how you take criticism as hatred, though. Fanboy all the way, just not for the setting but for the makers. Do you expect a reward for being such an adorable yes-man and 'policing the fans'? Or is this just your intolerance of opinions not your own? Much like with Pepsi, who tries to make up for his own intellectual and cognitive failures by blaming the opposite of them.

You're such fair and balanced folks.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi, who showed the lack of care he accuses me of in not being able to get Scale's name right, decides to nitpick a summary where I didn't care to retell every small event, is contradicting himself (no, the dragon wasn't executed on order of Lofwyr, but on his standing order of nonviolence or else), and doesn't even understand the problem in characterisation. The problem being that Lofwyr executing a dragon just like that makes him consider dragon lives as cheap as human lives. Which violates everything he supposedly believes in. Which makes me wonder where the dramatic shift in personality came from, if not just lazy/bad writing.

For reference:

LOL Wait wait wait wait....

You're going to jump up and down, pointing to me because I typed Scales instead of Scale.. when YOU, falsely said, repeatedly in multiple posts that Lofwyr ordered the death of the dragon? LOL Gimme a break.

You were wrong Hermit. You characterized it incorrectly and horribly so. It wasn't that you got the name wrong. You said Lofwyr ordered the death, then go on to ask if he's drunk or on weed or even himself

Lo didn't order the death. He wasn't even there. The dragon was killed for disobeying Lo's order. Regardless of what the order was. THAT's the problem. The Dragon wasn't killed because of a lowly human. He was killed for not obeying orders of Lofwyr. It's a major major difference. Dragon's kill humans all the time. (( in this case 90,000+ in a year)).

You're totally missing the point. You characterized this as so far out of character for Lofwyr to care about one human to the point he kills a dragon for it! Oh noes!!!111!!!! When it's not that at all.

The storyteller in this section points out that many of the dragon's there didn't want to be there and seemed to be pressed into service. When one breaks a command by their leader, -----that---- is what has Lofwyr's lieutenant order him killed. Lofwyr doesn't even show up till the next morning.

Nice try, trying to wave your hands and point to me. "Oh he said SCALES instead of SCALE!!!" Gimme a break. You repeatedly attributed it to Lofwyr, when it wasn't him. Wasn't a dragon, and Lofwyr wasn't even there yet. Nor was the death ordered due to a human being killed, but instead because one of their commander's orders being disobeyed. (( Yes the order was of non violence in the ranks but the 'reason' is very very different))


Lofwyr freaking out and ordering the death of a dragon for one merc's death. That's one thing.. but it didn't happen.

A lieutenant of Lofwyr's, ordering the death of a dragon for disobeying a direct order from Lofwyr himself. That's another. That's what happened here.

Sorry. A nitpick is you going "Pepsi Jedi said SCALES instead of SCALE" My pointing out you are attributing FALSE actions to a Dragon not even present when the actions occur and are attributing false reasoning to them, is not nitpicking

[Ixal]

If it was a dragon: yes. Really.

Fun how you take criticism as hatred, though. Fanboy all the way, just not for the setting but for the makers. Do you expect a reward for 'policing the fans'? Or is this just your intolerance of opinions not your own?

I am a fanboy? Just because pointing out that you are posting nonsense? I guess Pepsi is one, too then?
You might see it out of character but in my eyes considering that currently there was a civil war going on that Lofwyr would crack down hard on anyone defying his orders, including dragons. You remember, he is the Loremaster so defying his orders is extra bad and Lofwyr is pretty strict on proper (draconic) protocol.

When in your opinion did Lofwyr become a "every draconic life must be protected" pacifist? Before or after he killed Nachtmeister?

[Pepsi Jedi]

IMO, the problem isn't with a drake (even a trusted lieutenant) ordering the execution of a dragon over the death of a human.
The problem is with the loremaster of all dragonkind not having a formal accusation and rendition of the sentence regarding Alamaise. Lofwyr just goes out there, hires a few hundred runners and mercs and doles out some good ol' fashioned vigilante justice. The problems started in the corresponding chapter in Clutch. He could just as well have had a disciplined force in form of SK Prime assets, supported by corp forces and then forced other dragons to support his views and have even more support from their side by dint of him being the loremaster.
It is clearly not only a personal matter between Lofwyr and Alamaise but rather something that affects the traditions and way of life of all dragons world wide, so by definition something that falls in the area of responsibility of the loremaster.

Instead, this chapter is what happened. I'm less than impressed with it and how it was resolved.

What I got out of it, was that Lofwyr doesn't use SK assets, because in doing so it becomes a 'Corp problem' thus can be judged and ruled on by the Corp court, vs a 'Dragon problem' which can be handled as he sees fit.

[Ixal]

What I got out of it, was that Lofwyr doesn't use SK assets, because in doing so it becomes a 'Corp problem' thus can be judged and ruled on by the Corp court, vs a 'Dragon problem' which can be handled as he sees fit.

Also why waste your own assets when you can hire runners who you mostly don't have to pay afterwards as nearly all of them will die?

[hermit]

No, you are a yes-man with an attitude to police. You point out you do not agree with me, and using mean hyperbolic language - in the same kind of language. The word for this is hypocrite. So we're at hypocrite yes-man. You also never even read my review, yet seem to know all it's contents. You you complain about things you just have no idea of. Double hypocrite?

You might see it out of character but in my eyes considering that currently there was a civil war going on that Lofwyr would crack down hard on anyone defying his orders, including dragons. You remember, he is the Loremaster so defying his orders is extra bad and Lofwyr is pretty strict on proper (draconic) protocol.

Seems it is not a problem with Hestaby, who disobeyed him worse and wasn't executed out of hand. Nevermind that draconic culture was changed to quick-and-dirty boardroom votes because the author didn't bother considering Survival Of The Fittest. See, you just want to rationalise this piece of hack work. and it falls apart every time you do it. And you then just ignore that and try to distract with insults.

Doesn't that become tiring?

Also why waste your own assets when you can hire runners who you mostly don't have to pay afterwards as nearly all of them will die?

Why, because street-scum, urban mercenaries like shadowrunners are just so super awesome compared to elite soldiers who actually have chains of command and can act as a coherent unit?

Seriously, it falls apart before common sense every time. I'd recommend to at least take pot shots at different parts of my review, but unfortzunatly you haven't even read them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Also why waste your own assets when you can hire runners who you mostly don't have to pay afterwards as nearly all of them will die?

Less life long insurance policies to pay out that way. *nods*

Still, I think it had more to do with not wanting the other corps to be able to use it as a point, either to attack SK or some how get SK involved. If Lofwyr used SK to clean it up, you could attribute it to be an SK problem that had to be fixed, as soon as it becomes an SK problem in the eyes of the corporate court, you're looking at 90,000+ Wrongful death lawsuits. Ouchy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No, you are a yes-man with an attitude to police. You point out you do not agree with me, and using mean hyperbolic language - in the same kind of language. The word for this is hypocrite. So we're at hypocrite yes-man. You also never even read my review, yet seem to know all it's contents. You you complain about things you just have no idea of. Double hypocrite?


Seems it is not a problem with Hestaby, who disobeyed him worse and wasn't executed out of hand. Nevermind that draconic culture was changed to quick-and-dirty boardroom votes because the author didn't bother considering Survival Of The Fittest. See, you just want to rationalise this piece of hack work. and it falls apart every time you do it. And you then just ignore that and try to distract with insults.

Doesn't that become tiring?

Hestaby isn't an 'adult' dragon. Hestaby is a 'Great dragon'. Different rules for different ranks. She got her own punishment for her actions. A punishment many times worse than Surring got and he killed tens of thousands of humans and was the cause for anti-dragon weaponry to be developed.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why, because street-scum, urban mercenaries like shadowrunners are just so super awesome compared to elite soldiers who actually have chains of command and can act as a coherent unit?

Seriously, it falls apart before common sense every time. I'd recommend to at least take pot shots at different parts of my review, but unfortzunatly you haven't even read them.

1) It's pointed out, ---in---- the story that the lack of the runners working together or it being one of the big merc groups was strange and seemed unwise at best. This indicates that it was done on purpose. not by accident. If it was accidental by the writers, why would they comment on it multiple times? Lo did it on purpose. Now to what purpose, they've not said, but my own guess has weight.

To keep it distanced from SK itself to keep any actions from landing infront of the Corp Court.

Two. I'm pretty sure some where along the line he said he went back and read all of your review.

[Ixal]

No, you are a yes-man with an attitude to police. You point out you do not agree with me, and using mean hyperbolic language - in the same kind of language. The word for this is hypocrite. So we're at hypocrite yes-man. You also never even read my review, yet seem to know all it's contents. You you complain about things you just have no idea of. Double hypocrite?


Seems it is not a problem with Hestaby, who disobeyed him worse and wasn't executed out of hand. Nevermind that draconic culture was changed to quick-and-dirty boardroom votes because the author didn't bother considering Survival Of The Fittest. See, you just want to rationalise this piece of hack work. and it falls apart every time you do it. And you then just ignore that and try to distract with insults.

Doesn't that become tiring?

Now I am a yes man for calling you out your nonsense. Hater much?
Do I know all contents of your review? No. Where have I claimed that? What I do know is what Pepsi quoted from your review where you got a plot point completely wrong (or worse, consciously twist it to fuel your rage) which is the current object of the discussion. I do not need to know your review about the Japancorps chapter for that.

Why, because street-scum, urban mercenaries like shadowrunners are just so super awesome compared to elite soldiers who actually have chains of command and can act as a coherent unit?

Considering that the runners were at best cannon fodder to occupy the spirits why would they need a chain of command or even act as coherent unit?

[hermit]

You are a yes-man for your aggressive attitude towards negative reviews. Hater much? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Really, this Fox News level arguing is circular, tiresome and boring. You can't even be bothered to read what I wrote, yet you make rather bold claims about my hatefulness in my review. I'm done with you for this discussion.

[bannockburn]

What I got out of it, was that Lofwyr doesn't use SK assets, because in doing so it becomes a 'Corp problem' thus can be judged and ruled on by the Corp court, vs a 'Dragon problem' which can be handled as he sees fit.

Well, that's an explanation, but it wasn't spelled out that way (or it wasn't clear enough to having me remember it). It is also not an insurmountable problem to spin it like something of the following:

Fictional press release:
"We at Saeder-Krupp, as an entity which, as a founding member, is very concerned about the well-being of the NEEC and its inhabitants, have decided to put an end to the appalling loss of life due to terrorist dracoforms in GeMiTo. This is, in part, to show the populace at large that one dragon is not all dragons, and that not only our CEO but also all the supporting individuals are condemning the actions of Alamaise and his followers."

Just one of multiple possibilities, and I don't see why the CC would have any objection to such an action. Ares, e.g., has nuked Chicago, in a similar situation.

Edit: Yes, apparently it was on purpose. But this apparently stupid decision is out of character for the normally very shrewd Lofwyr. It wouldn't be if there'd be a master gambit that is revealed just before the end. But there wasn't.

[Ixal]

You are a yes-man for your aggressive attitude towards negative reviews. Hater much? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As long as you use real problems in the book to point out why it is not good instead of made up ones (and at least try to use a semi-professional language in the review) I have no problem with it.

[Faelan]

Actually Lofwyr ORDERING the death of any dragon without a Council of Great Dragons being called or without said dragon directly attacking or attempting to take territory or hoard from Lofwyr flies in the face of every supplement ever written about Dragons. This applies to both SR and Earthdawn, you will be hard pressed to come up with anything even resembling this situation. Dragons don't take kindly to being ordered for one, and Great Dragons don't execute younger dragons for disobeying, they instead teach them a lesson. It is completely out of character and flies in the face of the conventions of the setting. To put it simply it is lazy writing, or writing by someone who simply is not well versed in the setting. Every new supplement makes me wonder about exactly why a certain loremaster of the dumpshock community had a falling out with the CGL brass, and if this is the kind of stuff he was objecting to, because quite frankly while I like I.E.'s, Great Dragons, and many of the other extreme elements of the setting I have never liked a heavy handed use of them. CGL is turning this into a World of Darkness like setting with a near immortal behind every plot, and event of any significance in the setting. The thing that separated SR before was the fact that technology levelled the playing field, that everyone was vulnerable to the reaper, even Great Dragons. I know Alamaise died, but he was just a victim of the malaise spreading itself across the setting in the form of a legion of Marty Stus and Mary Sues. He had the misfortune of not being one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Actually Lofwyr ORDERING the death of any dragon without a Council of Great Dragons being called or without said dragon directly attacking or attempting to take territory or hoard from Lofwyr flies in the face of every supplement ever written about Dragons. This applies to both SR and Earthdawn, you will be hard pressed to come up with anything even resembling this situation. Dragons don't take kindly to being ordered for one, and Great Dragons don't execute younger dragons for disobeying, they instead teach them a lesson. It is completely out of character and flies in the face of the conventions of the setting. To put it simply it is lazy writing, or writing by someone who simply is not well versed in the setting. Every new supplement makes me wonder about exactly why a certain loremaster of the dumpshock community had a falling out with the CGL brass, and if this is the kind of stuff he was objecting to, because quite frankly while I like I.E.'s, Great Dragons, and many of the other extreme elements of the setting I have never liked a heavy handed use of them. CGL is turning this into a World of Darkness like setting with a near immortal behind every plot, and event of any significance in the setting. The thing that separated SR before was the fact that technology levelled the playing field, that everyone was vulnerable to the reaper, even Great Dragons. I know Alamaise died, but he was just a victim of the malaise spreading itself across the setting in the form of a legion of Marty Stus and Mary Sues. He had the misfortune of not being one.

Well again. Lofwyr didn't order the death. A drake did, for disobeying orders in a time of war.

(For reference a commanding officer by military law, is sometimes required to kill his own troop, if they disobey an order in a time of war. In times of peace you might get a court martial. In times of war, maybe not. It depends on the circumstance.)

And I'd day Al's death, isn't that much of a stretch when he and his zealots took out 90,000+ Humans, snacking in the open over the course of a year. That'd pretty much put anyone on the "Kill list".

If Lofwyr were flying around Germany landing and eating 300 people a day, to the tune of 90,000 in a year, I'm pretty sure someone or someones would have stepped up to wack him too.

[Faelan]

Well again. Lofwyr didn't order the death. A drake did, for disobeying orders in a time of war.

...and the drake was not blasted to oblivion afterwards? A dragon followed a drake's order? Really?

(For reference a commanding officer by military law, is sometimes required to kill his own troop, if they disobey an order in a time of war. In times of peace you might get a court martial. In times of war, maybe not. It depends on the circumstance.)

Dragons don't have armies, they don't have military structures, they do things together because something requires it and then go about their own business, they are not human. Your comment speaks volumes, because everything about it flies in the face of every supplement about dragons.

And I'd day Al's death, isn't that much of a stretch when he and his zealots took out 90,000+ Humans, snacking in the open over the course of a year. That'd pretty much put anyone on the "Kill list".

Except Lofwyr and Alamais had one thing in common, and that was their belief that any life outside of draconic life was lesser, entirely expendable, and in no way was it to ever be compared with draconic life. They serve and live, or oppose and die. Tools no more, no less.

If Lofwyr were flying around Germany landing and eating 300 people a day, to the tune of 90,000 in a year, I'm pretty sure someone or someones would have stepped up to wack him too.

Nope, Lofwyr would just continue to never, ever, fail at anything, in a potentially fatal manner.

[Fatum]

hermit, can we please focus on discussing the book and not other posters' personalities? That is adding nothing to the discussion at hand.

As for the runners being used on some mysterious purpose of draconic etiquette - I could buy it if not for the fact that they were hired to loot Hestaby's hoard for Lofwyr, too. Can you rationalize hiring a bunch of street thugs to handle artifacts worth billions?

Also, you say that Scale gave an order to have the dragon killed, but do you really think he didn't consult Lofwyr first? Or is it somehow impossible without the Great being there in person?
Hell, even if he did it on his own volition - the power to give such an order came from up high, and by the feudal logic it's still Lofwyr's responsibility if only for investing it.

[Lionhearted]

Did said drake get crushed for doing that?
Drakes were made to serve, dragons are their masters, a servant killing a dragon that's under the same banner?
Not in a million years that would be tolerated.
Stepping out of line is one thing, getting away with it, is the same as saying Lofwyr sanctioned it.

[hermit]

hermit, can we please focus on discussing the book and not other posters' personalities? That is adding nothing to the discussion at hand.

You're right, my mistake. I stopped it. So yes, we can.

As for the runners being used on some mysterious purpose of draconic etiquette - I could buy it if not for the fact that they were hired to loot Hestaby's hoard for Lofwyr, too. Can you rationalize hiring a bunch of street thugs to handle artifacts worth billions?

And paying them little compared to the values they're moving, too. But Alamaise doesn't seem to understand how hiring shadowrunners works.