Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[Stahlseele]

ok, found this on the german offical board, i suspect it to be from this book . .

[ Spoiler ]

Blue Glue?
A sentient magical active Cloud that killed Sirrurg?
And it's floating around the world?
what? x.x

[Ixal]

ok, found this on the german offical board, i suspect it to be from this book . .

[ Spoiler ]

Blue Glue?
A sentient magical active Cloud that killed Sirrurg?
And it's floating around the world?
what? x.x

The general idea yes. The details are completely wrong though.

[ Spoiler ]

Blue-227 (or 277?) is a chemical weapon with magical components which thickens the blood of dragons to make them unable to move or thins it so that they bleed out quickly.
It was used against Sirrung in mass so that a huge cloud was created and then dispersed because of winds.
The blood magic ritual against Sirrung mutated that cloud so that it now induces rage in metahumans (it is unclear if it still affects dragons) and it is hinted that the fighting around Bogota was so brutal because of it.
No idea why they say its sentient or that Sirrrung is dead.

[RHat]

Well I'd still say not quite, the Loremaster is not an office with an executive role. It's an honorary title and seems to hold a ceremonial significance. For example from what little can be gleaned from Survival of the Fittest (SotF) the Loremaster seems to begin the "Rite of Opening" of a dragon council. And as Ghostwalker points out the dragon council cannot form without having chosen a Loremaster. But as far as I can tell the council takes decisions by vote. The Loremaster can offer his opinion and advise and I suppose is expected to do so. But whether anybody follows it, seems to be up to them. I think great dragons are far to independent-minded to consider them a voting block that follows the Loremaster's decisions until he loses their trust.

We are, however, not talking about an action of the council - nor are we talking about great. We're talking about Lofwyr leveraging the position of Loremaster (and the respect that comes with that) to bring adult dragons into his service. Lung and Arleesh? We can assume they had their own reasons for being involved.

Even if he has no direct, mandated power, the position of Loremaster is explicitly not only ceremonial.

[apple]

But I never said it was sentient! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[lokii]

We are, however, not talking about an action of the council - nor are we talking about great. We're talking about Lofwyr leveraging the position of Loremaster (and the respect that comes with that) to bring adult dragons into his service.

I wasn't aware we were. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) We got into this, because CGL's latest releases seem to lend themselves to the impression that the Loremaster is something like the "Dragon president".

I don't have a problem with your interpretation. I assume others are possible, for example that those adult dragons are in the service of other great dragons who send them to show their support of Lofwyr's actions or that they were promised something by the great dragons (that last one maybe doesn't work so well with summary executions though).

[ Spoiler ]

My problem would be that Celedyr gets to dictate what happens next because he is now Loremaster. That I find questionable knowing the background on the position. It's also easy to fix by just saying "as per Celedyr's advice" or something like that.

[RHat]

[ Spoiler ]

Actually, it's not all that problematic. Simply put, the decree means that any violators come into direct conflict with Celedyr. Thus, that decree has as much strength as Celedyr has the power to enforce it. That's the sort of thing I mean when I say that the Loremaster's power has no limit, though it fluctuates wildly.

[Wakshaani]

[ Spoiler ]

Actually, it's not all that problematic. Simply put, the decree means that any violators come into direct conflict with Celedyr. Thus, that decree has as much strength as Celedyr has the power to enforce it. That's the sort of thing I mean when I say that the Loremaster's power has no limit, though it fluctuates wildly.

Of course, the Loremaster position isn't normally given away ... it's taken. Should he try an enforce something too strongly, or without the backings of the majority, well, his reign could be a short one...

[RHat]

[ Spoiler ]

Of course, the Loremaster position isn't normally given away ... it's taken. Should he try an enforce something too strongly, or without the backings of the majority, well, his reign could be a short one...

[ Spoiler ]

I'll reiterate my suspicion that all of this was somehow planned...

[Fatum]

In Essen!

[Stahlseele]

With Trinken!

[hermit]

Just as planned.

[lokii]

Okay, to get a better picture, I read through both the War Room from Clutch of Dragons (CoD) and the Aftermath section of the Dragon Civil War from Storm Front (SF), apologies if I bring things up that were already discussed for the former. Before I start I want to concede that even if you re-read all of the canon material on dragons there will be plenty of unknown territory, things you can invent or subtly reinterpret. So, for me the question is, does the portrayal of the great dragons "feel" the same way as before, does it click with established canon? And I would say no. Whoever wrote the pieces did either not read about the gathering of dragons from Survival of the Fittest (SotF) or chose to completely ignore it. I don't want to make the point that I'm unhappy because the portrayal doesn't exactly fit with old descriptions or my personal vision, but that in aggregation the choices in description don't reflect important traits of the dragons and thus it feels quite different from before.

[ Spoiler ]

There is the choice to let the great dragons conduct all their business in metahuman form (explicit in CoD, implicit in SF per the image shown). Now I'm sure most of them have no problem to use this form when it is convenient. But most dragons also feel metahumans are inferior to them, so why would they appear that way among themselves? This of course leads to none of the dragons actually using the ritual gestures that are supposed to be central to all their interactions. (And described in SotF.) They don't refer to each other by their ritual names. Their assembly is never called a dragon council even though that is its name. It's not said where it is held in SF, but the assembly in CoD, which really appears to be an assembly rather than a council, takes place in a corporate boardroom, quite untraditional for creatures who used to gather under the open sky. Generally speaking, they don't only look like metahumans they kinda also act like them. So much for flavour.

There are other details, for example when the "mourning rituals" are performed for Alamais. That would be the "Dance for the Fallen" which is performed in the air above the place of death, as happened for Dunkelzahn, or above the dead dragon's lair. Whether it occurred at all can't be said, but this spectacle should have been the only thing visible to the outside of the dragon's proceedings. Because why they seem to be unable to keep what happens at the council between them I really don't get. A gathering the world should not even know about. How is this difficult task in times of 24/7 dragon watching accomplished in SotF? The dragons remained in their lair and their astral forms met at the place of gathering. There are other things that seem to be out of character to me, but it's the result of multiple plot choices, some of which I can now say I saw coming up as a problem when I read and disliked Hestaby's UN speech in State of the Art 2073.

Okay, finally the Loremaster was of course what I actually looked into. The (to my understanding non-existing) executive nature of this position isn't played up as strongly as I thought from the descriptions but it is there: "faithful service to the Loremaster" "Celedyr's first act as the new Loremaster", "squabbles that the dragons wanted the Loremaster to hear out" or how Lofwyr describes his role in CoD: "As Loremaster, I must seek to ensure bloodshed amongst our kind is kept to a minimum." Also the Loremaster is considered the most worthy of this particular honor among his peers (one can debate whether Lofwyr truly deserved but the next one should). So a bunch of dragons crying me too, struck me as pretty undeserving of the title. Still, I'm glad that the dragons are actually taking votes.

As I said nothing about the dragons is really set in stone, much is up to interpretation. But I would argue in terms of portraying dragons the latest publications fail to connect with established canon in tone as well as substance.

[lokii]

BTW: That was now 3 great dragons in about 20 years. If the rate keeps up, we will be rid of them, in something like 150 years.

[hermit]

Feuerschwinge isn't entirely dead. Do you have Drachenbrut? The German part is ... interesting. And, together with Zebulon and Lethe, points into an interesting direction about Greats and death. It looked like a stunt with Dunkelzahn, but what if it is the Norm, and the Heart had a different purpose?

[bannockburn]

I've got no general problem with Greats dying. The sixth world is a dangerous place for everyone. But I agree with what you said in the spoiler tags and I applaud that you put my feelings into words. However, I disagree with them taking a democratic vote. Dragon society is more of a meritocracy as far as it's been presented so far.

[hermit]

I suppose a democratic vote in times of crisis is the least problematic thing though. They just couldn't launch SotF 2 after .... that. They needed a fast respolution. Though, making Celedyr provisional Loremaster until SotF 2 would be ... better.

[bannockburn]

They had 10 years (?) without one. Different time scales, but yeah ... A possible explanation. And Celedyr is rather capable AND fits the role, after all.
Having him in that position was a surprise move, but I found it interesting and fitting.

[hermit]

Well, they DO need a loremaster to patch together what little remains of their civilisation and customs after these two writeups. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[tasti man LH]

Sure you don't want to right this off as Lofwyr going "Screw the rules, I have money!!!" ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Lionhearted]

I think I like dragon politics better when it's hearsay from conspiracy nuts...

[lokii]

Feuerschwinge isn't entirely dead. Do you have Drachenbrut? The German part is ... interesting. And, together with Zebulon and Lethe, points into an interesting direction about Greats and Death. It looked like a stunt with Dunkelzahn, but what if it is the Norm?

I was thinking of Nachtmeister not Feuerschwinge. And no, I read the English version, but I can imagine the train of thought.

However, I disagree with them taking a democratic vote. Dragon society is more of a meritocracy as far as it's been presented so far.

Voting on issues of the council I meant. In contrast to the Loremaster dictating what to do.

[ Spoiler ]

How the Loremaster is chosen, when the last one steps down is unclear I think. CGL's answer: vote on it.

I think I like dragon politics better when it's hearsay from conspiracy nuts...

That is definitely part of the problem. War Room is long and goes into too much detail. The Aftermath section is much too well-informed.

Also, on the necessity of having an "assembly", now, we need it, please, really, right away. The gathering of SotF is the first in the Sixth World and really if Ghostwalker hadn't called for it. Nobody would have cared.

[Fatum]

But most dragons also feel metahumans are inferior to them, so why would they appear that way among themselves?

Well, it's worth asking why the Greats get a metahuman form at all to begin with...

Because why they seem to be unable to keep what happens at the council between them I really don't get.

As previously discussed, that's a problem with a lot of late-4E books: giving you information that the shadowposter has no reason to know - and, frankly, nobody in the Sixth World has a reason to know!

I think I like dragon politics better when it's hearsay from conspiracy nuts...

Again, see my previous points on intentionally vague plot...

[lokii]

Well, it's worth asking why the Greats get a metahuman form at all to begin with...

There was the now illegal procreation with inferior species...

[ChromeZephyr]

As well as the old "This? Merely a form you are more comfortable with" line...

[hermit]

As well as the old "This? Merely a form you are more comfortable with" line...

Yeah, don't want to scare off the eavesdoppers.