Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[Nath]

Whether Lethe was intended as a product or a more natural result of a Great dragon's passing is hard to say.

As far as the continuity with Earthdawn is still a thing, no, I don't think it could be considered as something "natural." There was a precedent with Yuichotol spirit, that at the time did not seem to be the norm.

The Book of Dragons
The most intriguing of Icewing's spirit allies is the one Named Ghost Scales. I strongly suspect that this is in fact the spirit of the Yuichotol, killed by the Therans before the Scourge. Yuichotol mated with Icewing on more than one occasion, and she was as adept in manipulating spirits forces as he is. Together they endhanted a set of powerful soul-stones, similar to those used by the nethermancers of the Hold of Courage in ancient Cara Fahd, so tha if one should die, their spirit would remain trapped within the stone. This transgression of dragon customs has yet to be atoned for. Her current state and powers are unfathomable to me, but I understand he has several magical constructs which allow her to speak and move. I would grieve to discover that one so great as she had sunken to become merely another doll of his.
- The Outcast Dragon, to the Denairastas

I understand there exists a difference of opinion on this matter between Doll-Maker, Ghost Scales and myself on one hand and many others on the other. May I remind you that at the last Council we allotted Ghost Scales a period of peace which she has not yet exhausted. Once that time has ended, we shall revisit the matter.
- Dunkelzahn, to the other dragons

Since The Clutch of Dragons tells us Lofwyr tried to destroy the spirit of Ghostwalker's mate and fragmented it several thousand years before the Sixth Age, it kinda hints at what got out when the dragons did "revisit the matter."

[Pepsi Jedi]

Right, but what'd happen next? Alamais would be the first to come after them, dragon supremacist as he is, and hoping to hide an astral trace from all of the world's Great Dragons is naive at best.

I can't speak for them, but if somone kills my giant roided out brother whom I was at war with and who was doing his level best to slaughter me for my (Admitedly Zealot like asshole) Ideals..... just before he kills ME... I'm not going to jump up and scream "ALL YOU ARE GOING TO DIE FOR SAVING MY LIFE AND KILLING THE GUY ABOUT TO KILL ME!!!!"

Now Dragons are weird. He might have gotten offended for 'kill stealing' as he wanted to Kill Lo himself, but still it's not totally bumfrak insane to think that if someone killed the guy getting ready to kill YOU, you might actually be grateful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am glad to hear you finally agree that CGL writing is inconsistent with previously established fluff as of late.

It does show a wide swath of seeming power levels for the greats. I wouldn't call it 'as of late' but 'in general'. With dragons everything's a bit weird. I do agree with how.... secreative they are on dragon stuff, that the dribs and drabs we get, each little bit furthering our 'knowledge' on dragons can be perceived badly. As with any complex topic, information we get today may directly contradict what we THOUGHT we knew for fact.. .when in reality that subject reacts to -new- situations differently than we thought it would.

In his metahuman form. See its comparative vulnerability pointed out multiple times by multiple people above.

But is that it? Was it because he was in metahuman form? or just boom? Why was the great dragon taken out with the jets, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo so so sooo much weaker than Sirrung? Does Lofwyr hit SOO hard that just going HTH for 45 min with Al was the equivalent of 3+ hours of full army, navy and airforce bombardment and chem weapons thrown at Sirrung?

Or are their abilitys just wildly different and any 'stats' we have for them silly on the face of it?

[CanRay]

"And you can all visit me in Dragon Heaven. Just watch out for the gate guard, he's apparently a real jerk." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[bannockburn]

But is that it? Was it because he was in metahuman form? or just boom? Why was the great dragon taken out with the jets, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo so so sooo much weaker than Sirrung? Does Lofwyr hit SOO hard that just going HTH for 45 min with Al was the equivalent of 3+ hours of full army, navy and airforce bombardment and chem weapons thrown at Sirrung?

Or are their abilitys just wildly different and any 'stats' we have for them silly on the face of it?

First thing: Dunkelzahn didn't die easily in his human form because he was in his human form. Nor did he just die from a bomb.
He died from suicide through unknown means to imbue the dragon heart artifact with a higher magic rating than would otherwise have been possible. He also took care to reduce the blast radius in order to minimize casualties.

2nd: Feuerschwinge had just awakened in February 2012 and had begun to terrorize the Harz region in Germany. She was vulnerable because she had just awakened and had never dealt with modern fighter jets nor any kind of high tech. It's probably a safe bet to say that she hadn't yet been able to summon a load of spirits and her long-term magical defenses weren't yet up. It was a surveying of the land near her place of awakening, realizing that puny mortals were all around and needed a lesson. Then giant metal bees and a crash in a polluted radioactive wasteland, while Lofwyr and Nebelherr prevented her mate Kaltenstein from coming to her help. So there's that.

I will not comment anymore than has been said on the matters of the duels between Alamaise and Lofwyr and the Aztlan army zergling rush.

And his name is Sirrurg. 3 R, no N. Sorry, pet peeve (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

I generally call him asshat, or worse. On any given day I can misspell anyone's name. Funky Dragon names... well. You're lucky I didn't add a q! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Fatum]

I can't speak for them, but if somone kills my giant roided out brother whom I was at war with and who was doing his level best to slaughter me for my (Admitedly Zealot like asshole) Ideals..... just before he kills ME... I'm not going to jump up and scream "ALL YOU ARE GOING TO DIE FOR SAVING MY LIFE AND KILLING THE GUY ABOUT TO KILL ME!!!!"

Now Dragons are weird. He might have gotten offended for 'kill stealing' as he wanted to Kill Lo himself, but still it's not totally bumfrak insane to think that if someone killed the guy getting ready to kill YOU, you might actually be grateful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Imagine you're Alamais. Some humans (who you consider to be infinitely below you) not only interfere in draconic affairs, but also kill a Great Dragon (and your brother). And they might try to frame you to boot.
Anyhow, I fail to see how killing Lofwyr, even if successful, would justify the risk of openly attacking a Great Dragon before three others and numerous lesser ones.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Those are humans (who you consider to be infinitely below you) who not only interfere in draconic affairs, but also kill a Great Dragon (and your brother). And they might try to frame you to boot.
Anyhow, I fail to see how killing Lofwyr, even if successful, would justify the risk of openly attacking a Great Dragon before three others and numerous lesser ones.

Again, it's in battle with Al, with Al about to die. Dragons are weird but if a dude was two shakes shy of ending my life and someone kills him, and saves my life. I don't put them instantly to the sword.

As for the risk, Lo is the most powerful Dragon on earth, both (Seemingly) In physical power and he owns the biggest Mega of all. The other dragons trying to split up his hoard would take forever and more than a few of them would likely die from that as well. I can see them 'taking their shot' at taking out number one.

They're zealots of their own kind. Eeeeevil mage types. *Shrugs* Zealots do stupid stuff. Look how many millions if not hundreds of millions of people have died through out history over religion and stuff.

I'm not saying their plan was smart. lol I wouldn't mess with him. But you can, if you look at it from a zealot point of view, how they got from A to B to C to (Soon DEAD).

[Fatum]

Again, it's in battle with Al, with Al about to die. Dragons are weird but if a dude was two shakes shy of ending my life and someone kills him, and saves my life. I don't put them instantly to the sword.

You're the same dude who attacks his own goddamn hirelings for being metahuman, remember?

The other dragons trying to split up his hoard would take forever and more than a few of them would likely die from that as well.

Haha, what?

They're zealots of their own kind. Eeeeevil mage types. *Shrugs* Zealots do stupid stuff. Look how many millions if not hundreds of millions of people have died through out history over religion and stuff.

Nice you see you admitting their plan wasn't reasonable by a sane man's measures.

[Wakshaani]

*sigh* Yes, the SSC/Tshimshian situation needs a resolution, desperately, but also the Sioux, what happened to them since NAN 2? And the Manitou, what are they up to? What about the Ute, why did they just let themselves be assimilated like that? What of all the minority tribes? How does the PCC integrate their new citizens, all the more since they just absorbed an Anglo Sprawl that has more inhabitants than PCC and Ute put together. And how do the Ute like being a minority in their own country after having fought, died and suffered for centuries under the same conditions?

Tsimshian gets an update in Dirty Tricks, as do the Sioux (And there's plot there that might be ongoing) ... The Manitou uprising got crushed, but there's not been much follow-up behind that. The Ute are an onging pain in the PCC's ass (See also the Rio Gambit), and might be part of how Azzies forces got into Denver ... we'll see more about that in the future. The PCC, in general, is having hiccups from too much 'food', Horizon's still not digested inside it, and now Denver's gone loco, teh Azzies drove in for a sorta invasion, the CAS is mad at everybody, and, oh hey, Celedyr is probably going to do something Dragony.

So, yeah, lots of stuff to catch up on and prep for the future. There's all kinds of border wars that could flare up, cultures to figure out, and, in general, lots of work to do. I look forward to when we can dig in to this plate full of goodies!

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're the same dude who attacks his own goddamn hirelings for being metahuman, remember?

I get it. He's a Zealot. Still. If they saved his life and defeated the guy about to kill him, I'd say there's some chance that he wouldn't instantly go off on his Zealot stupid streak

Haha, what?

If the black lodge killed Lofwyr, the other dragons are gonna wanna claim and split up his hoard. He owns the largest megacorp on earth. There's gonna be some fights over who gets what, where in some more dragons may end up dead.

Nice you see you admitting their plan wasn't reasonable by a sane man's measures.

Naa. Most Zealots, of most any stripe aren't really sane.

[RHat]

I still laugh at that. The Black Lodge are So Fucked if they seriously position themselves as open enemies to Lofwyr. He has no metahuman concept of mercy, and has a AAA megacorp and a whole stable of AA's and below at his beck and call.

I rather suspect that they'll turn out to have something more serious at their disposal, or something backing them... They seem too smart to make that kind of play without allowing for the possibility that their first strike would fail. Plus, it's supposed to be about 3 books worth of content, so clearly it's not going to be as simple as we'd expect.

[Fatum]

Zealots and idiots and great dragons killing each other all over, yaaay.

[tasti man LH]

When your crazy, and you've got nothing to lose, ANYTHING could seem possible...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Zealots and idiots and great dragons killing each other all over, yaaay.

Well to be fair, some of the Dragons, adult and Great WERE idiot Zealots. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[hermit]

They seem too smart to make that kind of play without allowing for the possibility that their first strike would fail.

Glad we agree that writing sucked.

[RHat]

Glad we agree that writing sucked.

... Seriously? That writing sucked because we haven't yet seen what their contingency plans are?

(Also, we only know that they THINK it was the Black Lodge. That could well be an elaborate frame-up.)

[hermit]

Rationalise it all you want.

[RHat]

Rationalise it all you want.

So, speculating that they have contingency plans we haven't seen yet (a perfectly logical assumption) is somehow rationalizing? I do not think you correctly understand the term.

[hermit]

So, speculating that they have contingency plans we haven't seen yet (a perfectly logical assumption) is somehow rationalizing? I do not think you correctly understand the term.

Speculating it is not the bad writing we see at face value but an elaborate plan by the authors is, indeed, rationalisation (more specifically, ad hoc hypothesization).

[RHat]

Speculating it is not the bad writing we see at face value but an elaborate plan by the authors is, indeed, rationalisation (more specifically, ad hoc hypothesization).

First, there's nothing elaborate about "the Black Lodge has contingency plans, so rather than getting immediately rocked the conflict will fill out 3 adventure books" (fun fact, we already know that there's at least three volumes of "Malevolent Ends", the first of which is subtitled "Hunt the Black Lodge").

Second, don't link to fragging Wikipedia to defend your point. It's just sad.

Third, a rationalization is a defence mechanism that is applied to an individual's own behaviours or thoughts that are, for some particular reason, unacceptable. It is utterly ludicrous to suggest that "bad writing" is triggering a defence mechanism in a third party - that's just not how these things work.

Fourth, don't go pretending that a bad form of rhetoric is a subset of a psychological defense mechanism. It's making your point seem weaker.

And in general, don't go trying to cite definitions at someone who has a better understanding of the subject matter than you do.

[Grinder]

hermit, RHat: move that discussion to PM. Thank you.

[RHat]

My apologies, should not have let myself become uncivil.

So what sort of Loremaster does everyone expect Celedyr to be?

[lokii]

So what sort of Loremaster does everyone expect Celedyr to be?

Difficult to answer, since it is unclear how much of the old information about Celedyr figures into the new writing. Someone the "Dragons of the Sixth World" describes the following way:

Unlike other dragons, Celedyr is not a power player by nature, but rather a scholar and a progressive at heart. He has two main passions in life: communications (particularly Matrix communications) and discovering the secrets under the earth. Recent events, however, have prompted him to take a more active role in the world to safeguard his interests.

Maybe shouldn't be Loremaster in the first place. It would have been much better not to inform us about the new Loremaster and maybe even just hint that Lofwyr might have stepped down.

Really, I just hope they take some time off from writing dragon plots and that the next person taking a stab at it goes back and reviews the discrepancies between former and recent treatment of the subject. Maybe someone should write a white paper.

Really, really, I think dragon society plots should not be attempted for several years. This supposedly static social system (from the perspective of mortals, anyway) cannot show so much dynamism. You can do plenty of interaction between single dragons or dragons and humans, follow-up on Hestaby, look at new dragons joining the ranks of the greats maybe. But if the next Loremaster change, great dragon death or a radical shift in their society occurs within two years or something, we'll jump the dragon on this plotline. That's why Hestaby's speech sounded incredibly radical to me, such drastic change in the relationship between dragons and humans was years off, as Storm Front incidentally proves. That's why she looked to me like great dragon who forgot to be one.

[Ixal]

So what sort of Loremaster does everyone expect Celedyr to be?

Imo Lofwyr 2.0
From all the great dragons he seems to be most similar to Lofwyr which likely is also why he reccomended him.
That and everyone else not being a good choice.

- Ghostwalker is disliked and was heavily opposed.
- Choosing either Lung or Ryumyo will upset the balance of power between them.
- Arleesh doesn't want.
- Schwarzkopf is too desinterested with politics (Might be a good trait for the loremaster actually but certainly not what Lofwyr has in mind).
- Masaru is too young.
- The rest is too closely aligned with either Hestaby or Alamais.

[Lionhearted]

The sea dragon for loremaster! *trollface*
Hey... Atleast she's neutral, except for that whole egg affair.