Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[binarywraith]

I rather suspect that they'll turn out to have something more serious at their disposal, or something backing them... They seem too smart to make that kind of play without allowing for the possibility that their first strike would fail. Plus, it's supposed to be about 3 books worth of content, so clearly it's not going to be as simple as we'd expect.

They could have Dunky's ghost, Captain Chaos, and the Corporate Court as backup, and they'd still be fucked. If someone looks like they could actually try and kill Lofwyr, he can and will bring down the entire weight of SK and all his personal alliances on them, and the most they could do is hope there's room on Zurich Orbital to hide whoever manages to actually get out of the manasphere alive.

People continuously fail to understand the sheer scale of AAA megacorps, let alone the kind of resources that a dragon who has one of the largest as part of his hoard has at his talontips.

[CrystalBlue]

God, I keep remembering how bad of a Shadowrunner I would actually be if I was one in real life. Listening to all of the death, devestation, and senseless genocide that goes on in this book makes me want to do something. My inner self and gut reaction is to try and do something about all of that. In fact, my main character's mentality would be the same. Problem is, the only thing that really matters in the long run is how one can make money off of all of this. It's one of the reasons I run games most of the time instead of play them. I let other people be heartless money-grabbers as my proxies, I guess.

I'm getting a little concerned about the state of massive powers, I guess. It's like the write-up from the Voices on the Field part pointed out (which is funny, because I thought someone was actually taking what I was thinking, since it's my main character's name up there). The power displayed at both the battle against Sirrug and the Great Dragon Civil War pales anything we can do in comparison. It's insane the level of magic that is thrown around on the battlefields. Watching what goes on during the battle makes you feel weak and insignificant. More then that. I makes you feel like you've got no chance in hell if something like that were to happen to you. Seriously, I thought the same thing. The world I live in after an event like that is no longer the world I'm a part of. And there's no way I can even live in the one I'm now currently in.

I mean, I get what the meta for the campaign is. I'm not a super-OMG-9000-POWERLEVEL character trying to fire massive bolts of energy from my fingertips. I'm a normal-ass dude with some magical powers trying to get a pay check and make sure the electricity is on for another few months. And I've never liked the idea of stating out characters like Harley and Lofwyr. That breaks so many things about the setting, it hurts. But my personal goal has always been to see how far I can take my magic and how powerful I can get. Not to use that power, but just to see and test it. And, to some extent, help protect those that don't have power enough to help themselves. It just all comes crashing down when spirits and spells fly all over the place with no real chance of me standing up to them.

By, meh...my two cents for now. Loved the write-up of Dodge, by the way, Critias! I want to see him back in action, cause I loved him so much pre-Crash 2.0. He's just a dawwww character now. ^.^

[Wakshaani]

An interesting thought about feeling weak. Of course, to wear the shoe on the other, uh. Claw. How do you think some of the dragons feel, what with a Great dead and another darn near killed?

But I digress.

I want a chance to take this conversation in a different direction. There've been people who enjoy teh book, people who don't, but a big question I always have is ... is it inspirational? That is, are there sections that you look through and go, "Oh man, I want this in my game?" or "I want to make a character like this guy," or whatever.

Have many people been glancing at the Seattle sections and going, "Man, food shortages and civil unrest? I want to see how my group deals with that?" Has anyone gone, "Okay, this chapter's not for me, but this one thing here? THAT, I can use."

In short ... what kinds of 'runs are you pulling from the pages? Background noise? News clipings?

It's a weird question, but.

[Fatum]

The power displayed at both the battle against Sirrug and the Great Dragon Civil War pales anything we can do in comparison. It's insane the level of magic that is thrown around on the battlefields. Watching what goes on during the battle makes you feel weak and insignificant. More then that. I makes you feel like you've got no chance in hell if something like that were to happen to you. Seriously, I thought the same thing. The world I live in after an event like that is no longer the world I'm a part of. And there's no way I can even live in the one I'm now currently in.

Eh, what about nukes, Thor sats and the Great Ghost Dance? WMDs have always been present in the setting, and not only present but actually unleashed.

[RHat]

Eh, what about nukes, Thor sats and the Great Ghost Dance? WMDs have always been present in the setting, and not only present but actually unleashed.

Now imagine a spell named "Redirect Orbital Weapons".

[Fatum]

Wakshaani, let me be frank, I guess.
The book is trying desperately to give plothooks for runners (for instance, with the whole runner army debacle, and the further looting of Hestaby's hoard), but I don't find those inspirational. A few chapters (like the one on Infected and the one on Dodger and the one on mysterious infection to a lesser extent) are purely background info which are hard to use in your campaign unless you're specifically addressing the related metaplot arcs, or find yourself willing to build a far-reaching plot based on whatever material is currently available, using those chapters as the hidden motivation behind the scenes.
Finally, some chapters (like the one on War, or the Seattle one) I just find bland in their petty politicking, with messed-up build-up from previous books leading to a rather uninspiring resolution. However, I harbour a long-standing distrust for games with runners getting involved in politics, whether those are state, corporate, or any other, since I don't really enjoy playing at higher power levels, so ymmv. But for me, Storm Front is a purely fluff book, and not a particularly good one at that.

[Fatum]

Now imagine a spell named "Redirect Orbital Weapons".

Why not "redirect great ghost dance magic" while you're at inventing spells with a drain greater than a tank's damage track?

[RHat]

Why not "redirect great ghost dance magic" while you're at inventing spells with a drain higher than a tank's damage track?

It's a spell for dragons. I imagine they could manage the Drain, or their incredible Magic scores wouldn't so much matter.

[Fatum]

You'd think that dragons would have better options, but yeah, sure, they might be able to pull it off.
How is this of any consolation to a runner who's still left comparatively powerless?

[binarywraith]

You'd think that dragons would have better options, but yeah, sure, they might be able to pull it off.
How is this of any consolation to a runner who's still left comparatively powerless?

Even more interesting, given that it is only barely theoretically possible for a PC to reach the levels necessary to cast such a thing, why in the hell would you spend design time and printing space on putting it into a book?

Same issue I have with statblocks for God-NPCs like Harley. Players don't need a statted out version of him. He can do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, and that's space and time that could have been devoted to something that is actually useful within a game. Or proofreading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Even more interesting, given that it is only barely theoretically possible for a PC to reach the levels necessary to cast such a thing, why in the hell would you spend design time and printing space on putting it into a book?

Same issue I have with statblocks for God-NPCs like Harley. Players don't need a statted out version of him. He can do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, and that's space and time that could have been devoted to something that is actually useful within a game. Or proofreading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I agree. Harle, or the Greats. None of them need stats. They do what the GM Says they can do or are needed to do to push the story forward.

[Fatum]

They don't, but Thor shots, nukes, cruise missiles, destroyers, tanks and division-level heavy howitzers do?

[Pepsi Jedi]

They don't, but Thor shots, nukes, cruise missiles, destroyers, tanks and division-level heavy howitzers do?

Thor shots? Nope. Nukes? Nope. Cruise missiles.... Nope. Destroyers? ... maybe speed. Tanks.. ehhh.... yeah. Howitzers? Ehhh.. No. Not really.

Again all these things, with the exception of maybe tanks are "tools" or set pieces for the GM, Same as great dragons. You really don't need to know how much damage a nuke does. You're either close enough to die in a white flash or you're not. Your GM will tell you. Same for the rest.

A tank... ehhhh. Maybe. You could actually take out a tank with out going ----stupid---- level strong, and a tank, while quite strong, isn't going to take out a city all by it's lonesome.

[CanRay]

Or you live in the zone I did during most of my life that happened in the Cold War, where death was a long, slow process that probably would have been (thankfully) hastened by starvation.

Nukes are not nice things, and neither is radiation.

[Fatum]

All that stuff is statted up in the recent CGL books.
And no, you're not punching through a tank's armour, see the armour piercing capabilities research at the bottom of the page referenced in my signature.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Or you live in the zone I did during most of my life that happened in the Cold War, where death was a long, slow process that probably would have been (thankfully) hastened by starvation.

Nukes are not nice things, and neither is radiation.

Isn't that covered in one of the books? Target Wastelands or Hazard pay or something?

[Pepsi Jedi]

All that stuff is statted up in the recent CGL books.
And no, you're not punching through a tank's armour, see the armour piercing capabilities research at the bottom of the page referenced in my signature.

*Points to the Mil Tech Spec books.... plural.* You can get through tank armor. It's just not easy.

Technically a guy with a rocket launcher can take out a tank with about 15 minutes of training. If nothing else you can take out it's locomotion and then disable it at leisure.

[Fatum]

I've suggested looking at the actual math, haven't I.
Nothing short of cruise missiles is capable of punching through a Stonewall's armour. Even a Thor shot either evaporates it outright or leaves it undented.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I've suggested looking at the actual math, haven't I.
Nothing short of cruise missiles is capable of punching through a Stonewall's armour. Even a Thor shot either evaporates it outright or leaves it undented.

You're back around to "You don't need stats" for the big big stuff.

Also, claiming faults in the rules for reasoning that you can't do something we know very well you can, is using the rules against the game. It's considered cheating at many tables.

[Fatum]

Yet we have them. They are just a bit, well, lacking.

The rules that don't represent the intuitively obvious interactions from the real world are usually considered subpar.

[Grinder]

Back to topic.

[Wakshaani]

Wakshaani, let me be frank, I guess.
The book is trying desperately to give plothooks for runners (for instance, with the whole runner army debacle, and the further looting of Hestaby's hoard), but I don't find those inspirational. A few chapters (like the one on Infected and the one on Dodger and the one on mysterious infection to a lesser extent) are purely background info which are hard to use in your campaign unless you're specifically addressing the related metaplot arcs, or find yourself willing to build a far-reaching plot based on whatever material is currently available, using those chapters as the hidden motivation behind the scenes.
Finally, some chapters (like the one on War, or the Seattle one) I just find bland in their petty politicking, with messed-up build-up from previous books leading to a rather uninspiring resolution. However, I harbour a long-standing distrust for games with runners getting involved in politics, whether those are state, corporate, or any other, since I don't really enjoy playing at higher power levels, so ymmv. But for me, Storm Front is a purely fluff book, and not a particularly good one at that.

Thank you! *jot jot* Valuable information.

Anyone else?

[Ixal]

Thank you! *jot jot* Valuable information.

Anyone else?

Most of the events in there are not really good for running oportunities. The events are either too high powered for runners to be really a part of it (unless you hate your players) or the running opportunities presented are so obvious that you do not really need the book for it.
Fatum covered it pretty well except that if you have a mind for politics the Seattle chapter can be a gold mine.

[binarywraith]

They don't, but Thor shots, nukes, cruise missiles, destroyers, tanks and division-level heavy howitzers do?

I try very, very hard to pretend WAR! does not exist as a book.

[hermit]

Thank you! *jot jot* Valuable information.

Anyone else?

Okay. By section, then a review of plot hooks.

Given I played in and ran the SRM Season 4 missions dealing with the Underground, the Seattle chapter was full of information relevant to my campaign (it is very specific there, but for a Missions player like me, it was rewarding; ymmv). I will certainly use the fallout from Missions and the Underground. Background noise certainly, runs certainly. More of this. I will also use Tir Tairngire, I think. Always been interested in the Telestrians.

The Japanese Megas teaming up ... well, I planned to use Shiawase more anyway, since the entry in Corp Guide which I reread recently actually is pretty damn nice. Issues I mentioned aside, I might pick up on this. Also, the inheritance issues. I'll probably deal with Shiawase in Europe differently, should this come up. Otherwise, good for backdrop, I might use. Certainly background noise, probably am offshore adventure with a mess of corp politics.

I'm unsure how to deal with the Matrix changes and Morbus Schletz. Might pick this up, might not. It has potential at least. As NetCat is a recurring NPC, I might use her a bit, which nescessiates some fallout from the changes at Jackpoint. It was a much better read than anticipated, though (props, Mr. Schletz). Not certain about use in-game; I think I'll wait and see. We're in 2072 in-game, so there's ample time on our campaign timeline.

The dragon war will not happen like this in my game, period. I'll either just entirely ignore it or massively retcon it. Sirrurgodzilla will be considered KIA, and the Boriquen related food shortages will be milder, because, don't you know, agriculture happens outside the Carribean! Ghostwalker and Harley seem out of place in my campaign too, so it'll likely not happen on-screen either. In fact, the only thing I might pick up from either Ghostwalker, Aztlan or Alamaise is the FMC as recurring amoral mercenary cannon fodder. Maybe a villain with FMC background, I dunno. Something like that. You can call that inspirational, I guess, though maybe not as the author intended.

Ares' Excalibur debacle might be background noise as an in-joke. Nothing more. I might even change it to be about a phone, since Apple issues seem at the heart of the writeup. Really, the mind boggles.

The plot hooks ... I was pretty unimpressed by, honestly. With Ghostwalker, Alamaise and Aztlan, they felt extemely forced and plain insulting for players participating. Yeah, I know, it's an attempt to get PCs "involved in historical events", but that actually is a debacle unless the PCs do something really important, and they do in neither plot hook (though they usually are extremely suicidal). Instead, what they end up as is "Oh, gawk at IMPORTNAT NPC doing IMPORTANT things while I show you how UNIMPORTANT you are, players!", which is something a GM should avoid at all cost. some things just need to be narrated as setting fiction. You cannot make a runner plot out of everything. You just need to balance, which also means less focus on setting NPC of power and more on, well, the setting when writing.

So not gonna use those. I know my players feel offended by Harlequin in Harlequin II already, and those plots take plaing extra to super-powered NPC to a whole new level. Plus, Alamaise clearly hasn't understood how "paying people" works. 5K for sap from several Sangre del Diabolo trees? 15K for fighting the entire Peace Force of Portland in a running battle? 25K for raiding a dragon horde (sic)?. That won't even cover travel cost. There's also plausibility and setting issues there (Denver/Gridlock: nanotech doesn't work that way!). The Plot Hooks with Ares add insult to injury because the same adventures are already available - they're called Sacrificial Limb and Corporate Intrigue (parts thereof). What the hell. That wins the lazy writing price. The only plot hooks I might use are the Seattle stuff - as follow-ups to Missions.

Game Info on Morbus Schletz, Dodger and the New Matrix, and Tir Tairngire would have been nice, and in fact would have lent themselves better to plot hooks than watching important NPC doing important things while being unimportant. Missed chances there. Generally, I'd like to see less focus on big NPC and NPC in general and more on stories.

That said, the stat blocks and super NPC are extremely superfluous. I can always copypaste them myself, I don't need space in a book that could be spent on decent writing wasted on them. SR4 suffers from NPC stat overflow anyway. It's like nobody knows how to stat NPC anymore. All in all, I get very little mileage out of the Game Info section - lots of stuff I'd need if I wanted to pick up the plots is not there - stats for the Falcon TAC-C and the Excalibur, for instance - and a lot of what is there is useless to me. Please, limit Game Info to relevant things, and no more stat block copypastes. Instead, focus on books with more decent, proofed, and peer-reviewed writing - and no glaring editing deficiencies like Shadow Network.