Missed it by 2 days Options

[Ixal]

And we now also have a new pope in the Shadowrun universe.

http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/03/15/habemus-papam/

I wonder if they planned to have a entry like this or made one because of recent events.

[Lionhearted]

Some things never changes...
The note about him being awakened is strange though, you'd think it would be hard to claim divine providence without it, then again... Dogma rarely adhere to reason.

[Smirnov]

I'm sure the awakened fact would be concealed. The church may approve the metahumans, but any form of magic is a no-no. There's no such thing as 'white magic' in the Book. (Miracles are another thing though)

[_Pax._]

I'm sure the awakened fact would be concealed. The church may approve the metahumans, but any form of magic is a no-no.

Unequivocably untrue. Re-read the linked article:
"The chapel was even warded with an astral barrier by magicians of the Order of St. Sylvester and theurg envoys from the French and German Catholic Churches to prevent spirits (or any other type of astral forms) from disturbing the holy election."

There's no such thing as 'white magic' in the Book. (Miracles are another thing though)

The Order of Saint Sylvester would tend to disagree with you.

[Smirnov]

You mean the Shadowrun one or the real world one?

[_Pax._]

The Shadowrun one. For two very, very good reasons:

(a) the OP started this thread with a link to an article specifically discussing the Church as it exists in the Shadowrun setting, as of 2073;

(b) discussing the REAL church would be a violation of the Dumpshock Terms of Service:
"4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. [...]"

[Sengir]

The chapel was even warded with an astral barrier by magicians of the Order of St. Sylvester and theurg envoys from the French and German Catholic Churches

Uh huh, so the schism with Westphalia has been overcome? I don't think so...

[_Pax._]

Not necessarily. A compromise - "wards can be built, but no summoning/spirits", for example.

[Sengir]

Not necessarily. A compromise - "wards can be built, but no summoning/spirits", for example.

The DKK does not just have a few ideological differences, it has renounced the Vatican wholesale and declared themselves the one and only true church™. Entrusting DKK representatives with ensuring the integrity of such an important (both spiritually in wrt. church politics) ritual is like asking the Chinese to count presidential votes...

[_Pax._]

The DKK does not just have a few ideological differences, it has renounced the Vatican wholesale and declared themselves the one and only true church™. Entrusting DKK representatives with ensuring the integrity of such an important (both spiritually in wrt. church politics) ritual is like asking the Chinese to count presidential votes...

Individuals who have disavowed the DKK's schismatic declaration, may have still been involved ...?

[Sengir]

Individuals who have disavowed the DKK's schismatic declaration, may have still been involved ...?

In that case they would not longer be theurg envoys from the German Catholic Church (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[lokii]

I noticed the same discrepancy. But then I wondered have really all German catholics also in alliance states other than Westphalia severed ties with Rome? I mean the whole clergy? Maybe. But also every believer in the country? Shouldn't there be an arm of the Roman church next to the True Church of the Lord God and His Saints?

[Sengir]

But then I wondered have really all German catholics also in alliance states other than Westphalia severed ties with Rome?

Certainly not. But the wording "envoys from the French and German Catholic Churches" leaves little doubt that it does not just refer to Catholics from Germany and France. First of all, if experts from a regional office visit the world headquarters they are not called "envoys". An envoy is somebody sent to a foreign power. Secondly, the plural "churches" does not make sense if referring to members of the Latin church. It only make sense when referring to autonomous churches which still accept the primacy of Rome (like the Coptics or some Eastern European churches), or fully separate churches.

[lokii]

Don't get me wrong, I also believe that whoever wrote the news item was probably not aware that the German Catholic Church is opposed to the Vatican. I just noticed my lack of knowledge on how the remainder of German catholicism is organised.

[Sengir]

I just noticed my lack of knowledge on how the remainder of German catholicism is organised.

Probably too much "business as usual" (even a rapid decline in attendance would be nothing new...) to be worth mentioning.

[lokii]

Well, I got an answer. In essence the influence of the German Catholic Church on catholics in the German Alliance reaches beyond their own theocratic state of Westphalia but there are also some Roman Catholic holdouts. More details here (in German): http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/21...zismus-und-dkk/

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Care to translate? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, is it John XXV or Paul XXV the name of the former Pope?

[Redjack]

Care to translate? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My google-fu is strong: Translated

[Fatum]

CGL quality at its very best.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Thanks Redjack, you google-fu is clearly strong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lokii]

Care to translate? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The Google translation largely gets the meaning across (though it bungles my enlightenment pun at the end (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). But if you still want a translation, I can provide one.

Also, is it John XXV or Paul XXV the name of the former Pope?

John.

[Fatum]

An actual translation would be nice. I'd link it from the German Content section, too.

[Redjack]

The Google translation largely gets the meaning across (though it bungles my enlightenment pun at the end.

When Google is the best you have, you take 2 hits of translation. Of course if 4+ hits are offered up... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[lokii]

Alright.

I came back to this question because of a German short story that just got published. In it the current leader of the German Catholic Church (GCC), Markus Domenikus von Rethagen, is called the chairman of the Conference of Bishops. That pointed to a much greater dominance of the GCC versus the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) than I imagined.

So, I asked about the influence of the GCC outside of the state of Westphalia (which the church completely controls). This was answered by sirdoom (see http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Beitrag:Peer Bieber) who wrote most if not all of the recent stuff about the GCC for the German Shadowrun publications. According to him most German catholics are members of the GCC, but there are still some RCC believers left. Next to Westphalia the archdioceses of Fulda (just a diocese today, possible that changed) and Cologne belong to the GCC (though Cologne itself still has a significant number of RCC believers), whereas the archdiocese of Munich-Freising is with the Roman Church.

Asked for clarification about the archdioceses of Hamburg, Berlin and Freiburg, sirdoom first points out that Shadowrun is not "Das Schwarze Auge" (which is of course the most successful German roleplaying system and sells a lot of setting books describing everything down to the colour of the prayer veils used in the seventh temple of the fifty-eighth small settlement to the right). Which is to say they have not divided all dioceses between GCC and RCC. So instead he offers a rough guide: the further away regional church structures are from Westphalia the more likely they will be RCC holdouts with the majority overall belonging to the GCC. He allows that probably none of the two churches holds much sway over Berlin.

[Redjack]

Thanks!