Critter powers as spells, Help me build some spells Options

[Thorguild]

Discussion requested: What are the game implications in allowing a spell that grants a critter power? What would the spell details be?

Hi all,

I only have the basic book and Street Magic, so this may be covered elsewhere. I've been thinking about spells that should be, in a world with tons of professional and hobbyist spell designers. There are a ton of useful applications in the critter power list. What would a spell that grants a critter power look like? What would its drain be?

Manipulation and health seem to be the go-to suspects for spell category. In fact, I could see there being a "manipulation version" or a "health version" of them. Technology offers a lot of different options in how to get a job done; why not magic?

Here's a discussion point: Would this be over-powered? Maybe. But after flipping through War! and some other supplements, I think this line has already been crossed obliterated.

Imbue Regeneration P T S (F÷2)+1: Manipulation spell, Physical, Touch range, Sustained, Major Change (+2). I'm thinking there should be a threshold on hits, like (7-Essence). Target gains regen while spell is sustained.

Then there's my favorite:

Imbue Sapience P T S (F÷2)+1: Manipulation spell, Physical, Touch range, Sustained, Major Change (+2). Threshold (7-Essence). Target gains sapience while spell is sustained.
-I'm the savior of ghouls! Now they eat at my restaurant which serves Sapient devil rat. All-you-can-eat. Sapient beef available with 24-hour notice; surcharges apply.

Thoughts?

Thorguild

[Tanegar]

-I'm the savior of ghouls! Now they eat at my restaurant which serves Sapient devil rat. All-you-can-eat. Sapient beef available with 24-hour notice; surcharges apply.

So... you're giving a creature an enhanced ability to experience and comprehend suffering, so you can feed it alive to a pack of ghouls.

I'd shoot you in the face for free.

[Thorguild]

So... you're giving a creature an enhanced ability to experience and comprehend suffering, so you can feed it alive to a pack of ghouls.

I'd shoot you in the face for free.

There's always someone who loves devil rats. I'd happily feed a devil rat to someone, even knowing it was suffering, rather than have a ghoul eat a person. Besides, fluff already shows you don't have to feed it to them live. They bring food to fancy ghouls on plates.

Thorguild

[Umidori]

With the limitations on Infected, there's not a lot of good options, morally speaking.

1) Kill anyone who is Infected. Status quo and pretty horrible in it's own right, but also impels the Infected to even greater evils because they are hunted.

2) Arranged Symbiosis. Least terrible option, but requires almost ideal conditions such as balanced population ratios and death rates, cyclical Essence feeding rotations, societal and legal issues resolved, et cetera, overwhelmingly unlikely.

3) Provide a different food source that is sufficiently sapient. We already farm raise countless species, all of which are sentient, if not fully sapient. While making a species better capable of experiencing emotion and suffering is it itself pretty bad, if the species is already considered a nuisance or a pest, this may be the most practicable solution. You have to weigh the added suffering of the food species against the reduced suffering of humanity, both Infected and not-Infected.

With sapient devil rat, you'd have 1) less Infected suffering, as they no longer have to hide and murder and all that; 2) less non-Infected suffering, as they no longer have to protect themselves from the Infected or cope with the trauma of things like having to shoot Grandma because she got bit by a ghoul; and 3) a pest species that is already being hunted and killed without any real beneficial side effect suddenly becoming a useable resource.

Oh, and by-the-by, Sapient food does nothing for Ghouls. Sapience only matters for Special Infected with Essence Drain and Essence Loss, because you can't drain Essence from non-sapients. Ghouls need actual human flesh, so they still have to eat dead people. Here there might be some room for the Symbiosis option, if ghoul populations can be kept small enough that they can just eat the dead we naturally produce, possibly supplemented by capital punishment or warfare, et cetera.

Personally, I still like my Sapient Bee Hives for Special Infected, because they're self replenishing.

~Umi

[Thorguild]

Oh, and by-the-by, Sapient food does nothing for Ghouls. Sapience only matters for Special Infected with Essence Drain and Essence Loss, because you can't drain Essence from non-sapients. Ghouls need actual human flesh, so they still have to eat dead people. Here there might be some room for the Symbiosis option, if ghoul populations can be kept small enough that they can just eat the dead we naturally produce, possibly supplemented by capital punishment or warfare, et cetera.

~Umi

I'd really like to put the conversation back on the Spell track, rather than ghoul-jack it. With that said...

Is that true? Hmm, too bad. I thought they just needed sapient flesh.

My best other option is to get paid/volunteer shifters and other regenerators to undergo "harvest" under general anesthesia. Step 1-Stomach catheterization for protein broth. Step 2-Hack out the thigh muscle. Step 3- Wait two minutes. Step 4- Repeat.

Thorguild

[Umidori]

On the other matter of the feasability of turning Critter Powers into Spells?

Critter Powers aren't normally intended to be available to players. They can provide some overwhelmingly powerful tools, and need to be carefully checked by GMs in the few cases that they are available to players.

Aside from things like playing Infected or Sapient Critters, the other primary way I know of to gain Critter Power usage is through making custom Magical Compounds. Using the rules from Street Magic to make Unique Enchantments allows you to harvest and refine reagents, and then use those reagents in combination with an appropriate formula to create Magical Compounds. This isn't terribly cheap or easy to accomplish, but it is doable, and it does allow you to gain Critter Powers to use, at least temporarily.

The utility of this is offset in a good number of ways. Magical Compounds have a short shelf life once made. Reagents have to come from virgin wilderness, which is often not easily accessible, and have to be carefully harvested, which requires an investment in Survival. Refining the raw reagents requires skill in Enchanting. Formulating a custom compound formula requires skill in Arcana. The threshold for the enchantment itself is very high, and with properly enforced extended test limits can easily be failed, especially for compounds that provide more than one critter power at a time. Even if you suceed, the compound also inflicts a suitable negative effect when it wears off. And all of this costs time and money and effort and initial karma investment.

Having these sorts of powers available for just an extra bit of drain is kind of absurd. High level mages with multiple initiations would gain a vastly powerful new set of tools for very little tangible cost, further exacerbating the problem of game balance in regards to magic.

~Umi

[Umidori]

My best other option is to get paid/volunteer shifters and other regenerators to undergo "harvest" under general anesthesia. Step 1-Stomach catheterization for protein broth. Step 2-Hack out the thigh muscle. Step 3- Wait two minutes. Step 4- Repeat.

A while back I actually had a small discussion (with, I believe, Patrick?) about the possibility for two Special Infected with Regeneration to just feed off each other eternally. With a Renfield or two to replenish Essence, it's apparantly fully possible, which makes me wonder why it doesn't happen more often.

Lemme see if I can dig up the link to the thread...

Oh, and Shifters aren't human, so no dice there.

~Umi

[phlapjack77]

Imbue Regeneration: kinda going back and forth on this, whether it's too powerful or not. Maybe also limit the amount of damage it can regen to net hits/round or something like this? I'd be worried that it would make spells like Heal obsolete...

Imbue Sapience: I guess this could be used for fun or just RP or whatever, but this seems a little too powerful. Not in the actual rules mechanics way of powerful. More like granting sapience to a creature seems like an "uplift" event, a big deal ^tm

[Tanegar]

I'd happily feed a devil rat to someone, even knowing it was suffering, rather than have a ghoul eat a person.

I don't think you understand the substance of my objection. Granting sapience to an animal makes that animal a person. You're not feeding ghouls animals instead of people, you're just feeding them a different kind of people. The question is moot, however, as Umidori pointed out.

My best other option is to get paid/volunteer shifters and other regenerators to undergo "harvest" under general anesthesia. Step 1-Stomach catheterization for protein broth. Step 2-Hack out the thigh muscle. Step 3- Wait two minutes. Step 4- Repeat.

Shifters are not human.

[Thorguild]

Having these sorts of powers available for just an extra bit of drain is kind of absurd. High level mages with multiple initiations would gain a vastly powerful new set of tools for very little tangible cost, further exacerbating the problem of game balance in regards to magic.

~Umi

I get where you are coming from. I haven't seen a lot of balance past the initial rulebook. Almost everything can be 'absurdly' unbalancing, and each supplement brings new things.

I'm not sure I agree though, that this would be so far out of the box. I know you've read other min-max threads on the board. How much worse is applied regeneration than a damage-soak troll build?

For discussion's sake, is the spell built correctly? Is there a set of rules that you would see as balanced for it?

*****
Complete aside here: Whenever I think of these balance discussions, I think of a medieval conversation about guns at the Round Role Playing Table.
Percival-So you want a crossbow that has 32 arrows, which you can fire all at once...
Leodegrance- Bullets, and they fire fast, but not all at once!
Percival-Whatever. And they don't require a string, or even for you to draw...
Leodegrance- Because they are powered by...
Percival- Magic.
Leodegrance- ...an alchemical powder like a ...
Percival- Magic.
Leodegrance- ...snapping log in a fire.
Percival- Translation: magic.
Leodegrance- ...
Uther- Not only wouldn't this work, but it's unbalancing. I rule no. Just like your magic horse. (Makes big mocking air-quotes)
Leodegrance- It's an auto-mobile, powered by ...
Percival- Magic.
Leodegrance- Shut up! Internal combustion!
***

[Thorguild]

I don't think you understand the substance of my objection. Granting sapience to an animal makes that animal a person. You're not feeding ghouls animals instead of people, you're just feeding them a different kind of people.

I think I understand. I know you've got a lot of people that agree with that IRL.

As to the shifter thing... Well, that's a harsh ruling, but justifiable. I don't think it's a very fun ruling though, for a game which implicitly mashes together fantasy and another-type-of-fantasy.

Thorguild

[Lionhearted]

You people got some very interesting standpoints *tilts head*
and no regeneration is broken as hell

[Thorguild]

You people got some very interesting standpoints *tilts head*

Neat new way to say "Cool story, bro". Kudos!

[Umidori]

I'm not sure I agree though, that this would be so far out of the box. I know you've read other min-max threads on the board. How much worse is applied regeneration than a damage-soak troll build?

Well considering you have to specifically build for a damage-soak troll build at the expense of other options, and Regeneration as a spell simply costs the karma to learn it... and also considering that it would be castable on any target of your choosing, and you could easily just have the mage cast it on the damage-soaking troll and make him completely batshit insane... yeah, this is indescribably worse.

A pure tank character makes certain sacrifices. It has costs associated with its benefits. Regeneration as a spell does not.

For discussion's sake, is the spell built correctly? Is there a set of rules that you would see as balanced for it?

No spells provide Critter Powers. The guidelines for creating custom spells have no mechanisms for reproducing such effects, and the only system I know of which can reproduce Critter Powers in ordinary metahumans - custom Magical Compounds - has substantial costs and limitations inherent to its usage. So no, I do not believe it is built correctly, as it exceeds all reasonable boundaries of custom spell creation.

As for a set of rules that I would see as balanced for it? The Magical Compounds system seems pretty balanced. So does the system of playing as an Infected, or other special character types. (Although Shifters get Regeneration a bit inexpensively in my mind.) I see no reason to make it available in spell form and no reasonable way for such a thing to be balanced.

~Umi

[Tanegar]

I think I understand. I know you've got a lot of people that agree with that IRL.

As to the shifter thing... Well, that's a harsh ruling, but justifiable. I don't think it's a very fun ruling though, for a game which implicitly mashes together fantasy and another-type-of-fantasy.

Thorguild

It's not a ruling, it's RAW. I can't cite you a page number, as my books are packed away ATM, but Runner's Companion spells out explicitly that shifters are not metahuman. A wolf shifter is a wolf that can turn into a man, not the other way around.

[Lionhearted]

Neat new way to say "Cool story, bro". Kudos!

More like, "I'd love to discuss the nature of sapience and non-human intelligence to great lengths with you but doing so would probably break several forum rules and be generally unpleasant" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also you can solve the ghoul dilemma without anyone dies, Dunkie proposed it in his will... Ghoul tofu.

[Umidori]

As I recall, clonal human tissue kind of works, depending who you ask.

~Umi

[Tanegar]

I think I understand. I know you've got a lot of people that agree with that IRL.

There's an Imbue Sapience spell IRL? What?

[Umidori]

He was refering to how if we could do this in the real world, that's likely how people would react. His point is that since SR isn't real, we can make allowances for things that we philosophically wouldn't normally agree with. Kinda like killing zombies is fine in video games, but would be morally ambiguous in real life.

~Umi

[Tanegar]

Kinda like killing zombies is fine in video games, but would be morally ambiguous in real life.

You're gonna have to explain this one to me. Destroying undead abominations that feed on the living would be morally ambiguous?

[bannockburn]

Sure it would be.
Do you know that they're really undead and beyond saving with medicinal aid?
Those are the questions that may occupy you just before your brain is eaten (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mantis]

Depends on how they were made doesn't it? Ghouls and vampires and such are undead in other systems but in Shadowrun they are just people who have been infected with a disease. Pretty morally ambiguous to go around killing folks that have a disease.

[Manunancy]

Imbue Regeneration: kinda going back and forth on this, whether it's too powerful or not. Maybe also limit the amount of damage it can regen to net hits/round or something like this? I'd be worried that it would make spells like Heal obsolete...

It also opens the door wide for abuse : cast it on a cybered samuraï and unless he's fiteed in Deltaware, al his goodies get dumped. Thouhg it's not profitable as 'turn to goo' in that regard as teh 'ware will get trashed.

[Umidori]

Oh gads, I'd forgotten, but now you reminded me... my players were discussing spells, including "Turn To Goo", and one of them came up with the hilariously off-color "Turn To Jew" spell. We kiiiinnda lost it for about five minutes.

~Umi

[KCKitsune]

Kinda like killing zombies is fine in video games, but would be morally ambiguous in real life.

~Umi

Shooting undead former people that want to eat me is morally ambiguous... not really. It's survival. I would gladly pull the trigger and you know what I would feel... joy that I'm still alive.

Depends on how they were made doesn't it? Ghouls and vampires and such are undead in other systems but in Shadowrun they are just people who have been infected with a disease. Pretty morally ambiguous to go around killing folks that have a disease.

Sorry, anything that looks at me and thinks: "Yeah... he looks like lunch." is going to get shot and I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

You know why? I LIKE SURVIVING!!! I am not a food source. ANYTHING that threatens to eat me is going to get shot. End of discussion.