 Hindu "Shamans", A challenge |
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 Apr 23 2004, 08:13 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 29-March 04 Member No.: 6,203  |
I'm thinking of making a Hindu "shaman" But I would like any suggestions that you have for "Totem" Rules.. example
Shiva is the god of destruction and renewal (also yoga and some other things that I cant think of right now). "Priest" of Shiva are fierce combatants but often know when to stay thier hand. Environment-any where Advantages- +2dice for combat spells and healing spells Disadvantages -2 dice on conjuring (but not banishing) tests Now YOU give it a try :) If you have ideas for hermetics thats cool to. If you have alternative ad/disad (ie something other than the usual +2 dice for this -1 die for that I would like to hear them as well. Finally if you think some current totem would fit (ie The creator totem would work nicely for a follower of Brahamn) Then let me know. 8) Thank you for your help and I hope you have fun with this "assignment". |
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Apr 23 2004, 09:18 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 18-January 04 From: bethlehem, pennsylvania. not israel. we're not busy bulldozing any palestinian homesteads here. yet. Member No.: 5,989 |
The beauty of the MitS expansion is the Idols do not neccessarily need to be any particular diety, they're abstract, like everything else. Case in point, my devout Catholic character who celebrates the Archangel Michael as his Patron. In this case, I opted to consider Michael as the Wise Warrior, a very obvious tilt-of-the-hat to Athena. Shiva, as you've described him, is also aptly fulfilled by Wise Warrior. Kali would be adqetuely represented by one of the lust/seduction idols, Krsna would be a fine Creator. |
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Apr 23 2004, 09:39 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Man, there are days when I really, really hate my NDA. Regardless, it's worth noting that most hindus are panthaestic and while there are cults and priests to specific dieties, hindu wisemen like Saddhu and Brahmin never subscribe to one patron. I agree with gfen Idol follower is the way to go.
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Apr 23 2004, 10:28 PM
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#4
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
So, Synner, is that Shadows of Asia or Shadows of the Middle East? :lick: |
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Apr 24 2004, 12:22 AM
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#5
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
My bet is SotA:'64 (locations locations locations).
But for Brahma I'd use Creator, Vishnu as the Wise Warrior, and Shiva as Raven. |
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 Apr 24 2004, 05:21 PM
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#6
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The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
Forgive my utter religious ignorance, but isn't a "Brahmin" a two headed cow? |
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Apr 24 2004, 05:32 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
:rotfl:
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Apr 24 2004, 05:46 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 7-July 02 From: The Bubble Member No.: 2,944 |
I would really consider doing most Hindu magical practioners as a type of hermetic or something different like the wujen or houngan are presented as.
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Apr 24 2004, 05:50 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
As a side note to what others have mentioned, i think +1 die combat and heal seems more inline.
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Apr 24 2004, 08:46 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Actually Hermetic is completely off. The hindu belief has no such thing as formulas or the basic arcance powers and hierarchies hermetic structures imply. Actually the Idol follower is the perfect model since all the Hindu dieties are in fact themselves aspects/incarnations of a higher diety - Brahman.
Brahmin are one of major Hindu castes. |
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Apr 24 2004, 10:27 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The Totems in MITS are so generic (Wise Warrior, Sky Father, etc.) that they could be used for almost anything, from Catholic saints, to neo-pagans, to abstract personal ideals, to strange post-awakening cults.
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Apr 24 2004, 11:12 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Actually, this sounds very hermetic, and very un-shamanic. |
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Apr 25 2004, 10:45 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Okay, let's clear that up. The use of the technology terminology to make a point does make it sound vaguely hermetic but the practice is nothing close.
The single greatest distinction between a Hermetic and Shamanic (or Idol follower) paradigma is the perception of the source and nature of the magician's Gift. A hermetic believes in a Hermeticist cosmology where Man can manipulate the universal power known as mana through symbols and objects of power. That is essential. There might even be higher powers but the mage is master of his art and magic in itself is neutral. Personal understanding of the forces and powers at play allow the mage control. A shaman or idol follower derives his ability to control mana from his belief. A shaman believes his Totem/Idol is the focus that allows him to use magic. Not only that, but he believes it is a Higher Power in his cosmology which allows him to use magic. So be it a Native American shaman (very loose), a Wiccan (quite ritualized) or a Japanese Shintoist (very ritualized), you could say that a shaman's magic is not neutral but "divine" in nature (from his point of view). What this means is that his ability to wield magic is attributed to an external Power (his Totem/Idol) and maintained by his adherence to the Power's "codes". Both interpretations assume "they fundamentally understood the workings of the universe and could, through that understanding, manipulate the material and spiritual worlds through magic. In this sense, magic is a form of technology, that is, it is primarily efficient: it begins with an understanding of the mechanisms of the universe and exploits those mechanisms to make things happen". The true issue above isn't understanding or even the mechanisms, because those are shaped by the paradigm of the mage and are common though distinct to both hermetics and shamans, but rather the very nature of magic and the forces that govern it. Would you say that praying to a higher power to intervene to create a specific effect sounds Hermetic? Isn't that the same as "an understanding of the mechanisms of the universe and exploits those mechanisms to make things happen." Just because the american writer wrapped the reality in easy to digest scientific woding doesn't mean the way it is practiced by a half-naked and painted-up aesthetic saddhu sitting on a rock outcropping overlooking the Ganges or a Brahmin untouchable presiding over one of the numerous Monsoon festivals is any less mystical and divinely inspired. |
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Apr 25 2004, 12:26 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
For a Hindu shaman I'd definately go with the rules for Hindu Magic on pg.25 of MiTS.
That is, Hindu shamans are often pantheistic. (each lunar cycle you choose one spell category and one spirit type to get +2 dice in. They receive no minuses, but when they undertake an astral quest they must visit all four planes.) The example Idols they list they list are Vishnu(Sky Father) and Kali(female Wild Huntsman), if you want to follow a certain path. |
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Apr 25 2004, 12:31 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
So basically, what yer saying Synner is Hermetics invoke while Shamans evoke?
However, I'm still not following why Idol followers summon Nature spirits. |
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Apr 25 2004, 01:18 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Something of the kind. There is some fuzzy overlap in sub-traditions (like Wicca) but basically that statement holds true for Hermetics vs. Idol followers.
It has to do with the specificity of Hermeticism's cosmology. The concept of Elementals (spirits) is a product of the structure of Hermetic elements, dominions and correspondences - which has so many similarities with qabbalistic structures that most "modern" versions of hermeticism from Dee to Crowley are a blend of the two. It's important to distinguish the followers of the Shamanic Path (which includes Druids, Neo-classical cults, Native american shamen, shintoists, African animists, aboriginal koradji, etc) from the common use of "shaman" (as in Native American) when looking at Nature spirits. All followers of the shamanic path believe to some extent in the independent existance of spirits and their inherent link to some metaphysical hierarchy of powers in the world. While in SR game terms there is no mechanics difference between a japanese mountain Kami evoked by a Shintoist priest and a mountain spirit conjured by a Cascade Ork shaman - they are percieved as different spirits (and because of the way magic is subject to individual belief and perception in SR they might even manifest different abilities). In this fashion Nature spirits are simply "archetypical templates" that are molded to a conjuror's perception (while Elementals have inbuilt hermetic correspondences and so paradigma-defined limitations) It is highly unlikely that a Shintoist priest (shamanistic) would ever conjure a City Spirit that looked like a tram or a toaster because that is not how he is taught to view spirits. On the other hand an self-taught Seattlite Rat urban shaman wouldn't be (very) surprised if a spirit took such a form. In game terms the two manifestations have exactly the same abilities, they're both Nature spirits conjured by different traditions of the shamanic path but they are nothing alike in terms of the way they are percieved by the magician himself and those around him... |
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Apr 25 2004, 01:54 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
It would be more like the voudoon hougans.
Kali is not so much lust as death and rebirth. Others may kill but it is to Kali-ma that the souls return to be reborn. She is the end to the go and the mother from whom they are reincarnated. It would be more like Ghede. |
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Apr 25 2004, 03:21 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
I'd go as far as to remove the qualifier "when looking at Nature spirits" I've reread MitS due to this thread and discovered a lot of little quirks of "Nature" spirits and the shamanic path that eases some of my problems. However, the bias from the corebook wasn't really dispelled. I think, most of my problems come with the terms the Shamanic Path uses, and the fact the AmerInd shamans are portayed as the base Shamanic Path follower. Terms like "Nature spirits" "Totems" and even "Shaman" as the default terms for this catagory of magic use confuses the reader, and calls up connotations that defines the use of magic in ways that it shouldn't IMO. However,
This part stymies me. Say we have Hermetic A, AmerInd Shaman B, and Shinto Priest C. A summons an earth elemental, B summons a mountain spirit, and C summons a japanese mountain Kami. Due to each of their seperate traditions and what they've learned, each of these spirits are different in manifestation, personality, and should they all assense the spirits, they'd all come to the conclusion that these are all different types of spirits. And within the boundaries of the fiction, they would be correct. However out of game and statwise, B and C are the same type of spirit with a different dress on. How can A's unique view on magic change the type of spirit on a fundamental level, whereas the Shinto priest's doesn't? Another example is spell formula. A Hermetic can't learn from B, the AmerInd Shaman, but he and C Shinto Priest can swap spells? And the Hindu Brahmin D, so long as he is on the Shamanic Path, can sell spells to both? That doesn't sound right. Blarg... hopefully this drek will make sense; been up way too long to be thinking this hard :P |
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Apr 25 2004, 04:23 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
I disagree very much. From what I understand of the SR implementation of shamanism, a shaman would not assume this at all. A shaman would not presume to "fundamentally understand the workings of the universe" because he might not; he only gets the power his totem allows him to use, and his totem and its motivations may be a great mystery to him. He wouldn't think that "magic is a form of technology," except perhaps if he were a very urban shaman. There's nothing technological about asking to use your power from a higher being who may or may not decide to grant you it. That's more akin to some sort of socialization, like asking a powerful contact for a favor, or a religious ritual than using a technology. And I very strongly doubt a shaman would agree to thinking in terms of using his understanding to "exploit those mechanisms to make things happen." I recall reading that shamans (in SR) view the astral as a living organism, an ecosystem like that of the material world. I think it's safe to say most shamans would be horrified at the idea of trying to exploit the living, breathing universe of mana, like a strip mine destroying a mountain. These are simply not the terms a shaman would think in.
No. Not at all. Not in the slightest. The issue here is that he has to ask the higher power, so from his point of view, wether the specific effect happens is not in your hands. That's the higher power's call. You might be allowed to use magic and do so easily because the power favors you (spell works, no/little drain). You might be able to use magic, but at a great cost because the power wants to reign you in (cast the spell, high drain). You might not be able to use magic at all because the higher power doesn't like the application you've put it towards (spell fizzles). A hermetic would view all these effects as being the result of the either correctly or incorrectly applying a technique that she knows and controls. Whether her magic works is in her hands. The shaman has to ask soemthing else to do it. That's not a technological view, it's a religious one.
But the wording is still important, because it make certain assumptions about the view of the magic user. Are you suggesting that the wording is a false representation of the Hindu shamanic viewpoint because it was filtered through a Western and rationalistic bias? Then why did you try to defend it by saying that both shamanic and hermetic magicians would agree to it and start from it as an assumption? |
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Apr 25 2004, 06:10 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Just like a Catholic priest would say, "God's Will is a mystery" or "The Lord moves in mysterious ways." Neither imply any doubt regarding the underlying Catholic cosmology: the existance of God, Heaven and Hell, the Angelic host, Christ's divinity, Genesis, etc. What I understand that particular statement to mean is that the believer makes certain assumptions about the fundamental organization of the universe and the powers that exist within it. A shaman doesn't just believe in his own Totem, he believes in a whole paradigm/cosmology besides in which his "patron" is one of many such powers and which has its own metaphysical hierarchies and correspondences. This doesn't mean he understands what his Totem (or Totems) are up to any more than a Catholic would ever say he understands God's Will, but it does mean that he believes in a certain fundamental paradigm of how the universe works and believes he can affect the world by interacting directly (magic) or indirectly (asking for the God(s) direct intervention - miracles). From this point of view there is no difference between a hermetic and a shaman "understand", where they start to diverge is in the details about what those powers, hierarchies and mechanisms actually are.
That is an incomplete quote. What the author says is:
The full quote makes it quite clear that the author is not referring to magic as technology, but that this utilitarian approach to using magic makes it a form of technology. Note the explanation of what he means by "efficient". I apologize for assuming the readers possessed a basic understanding of Hindu mysticism to realize that it's about as "un-technological" as it gets. It's not without reason that Hinduism is only surviving classical Panthaestic faith. Hindu cosmology has space for panthaeism, animism, witchcraft, human transcendence and spiritualism which would make Hermeticism cringe, however, just like Classic (Hellenic and Roman) Panthaeism Hindu worship and affiliation is by nature very utilitarian. You wanted good fortune at gambling in ancient Rome you made a tribute to Mercury. In India you want a good harvest you make a tribute to the local aspect of Vishnu. This "utilitarian" aspect is what the author is talking about.
Their is a huge different between utilitarian and controled use of natural forces and the exploitation of anything. But if you think about it this point actually underlines one of the issues raised in SR shamanism - not to exploit nature spirits but to ask them for favors.
That all depends on how the magician views his magic. Some will believe each spell is a miracle (ie. divinely inspired) but most will believe that their Talent to command magic is actually the "divine" Gift. In both versions the Totem/Idol/God etc is at the heart of the magician's ability but in the latter one (which is the only one that can be reconciled with Sixth World scientific fact that there is a gene that controls magic expression) there is no direct divine intervention every time you cast a spell. Instead the Higher power grants the knowledge and the ability to use magic, a natural and universal force. Magic itself is a universal and neutral force not divine in nature. The ability to use magic however might be divinely inspired. Note SR canon has established that this is how the Catholic Church and most major religions view magic.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. The author is using common Anthropological language and terms to interpret a cultural reality to its supposed Western-scientific paradigm underpinnings, and even so he is mindful to underline the fact by adding that "In this sense" reservation.
If you go back and read my post you will note that what I said was that the presumption that both understand the underpinnings of the universe. The mechanisms that allow the control and manipulation of mana. As I said before IMHO that belief is "common though distinct to both hermetics and shamans". Both possess complete cosmologies which tell them why the universe works the way it does, how these mechanisms work and how to make them work for the magician. Those cosmologies are however completely distinct (and to a large extent incompatible). |
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Apr 25 2004, 06:31 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Well, you make a good argument, and I think I can see more it your way. I wasn't aware that he was using specifically anthropological terms, I had assumed that the words were used in their common meanings. I'm aware, though, that words can take different meanings in technical contexts.
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Apr 25 2004, 07:25 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Actually the argument has been productive since I got to organize some thoughts I need to put into words in something I'm currently writing.
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Apr 26 2004, 01:13 AM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
This idea appears in Threats 2 in "Behind the False Face". |
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Apr 26 2004, 01:25 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
I like the idea of a hindu that follows the path of the Munchkin.
Munchkin followers are very cheesey and tend to be all powerfull demi gods. They are experts at abusing rules to their own advantage, pointing out flaws in others, and cheesing the system. Followers of the Munchkin gain 20 dice for all spells and spirits, do not take drain, and can summon any spirt of any type with an exclusive complex action. :rotfl: |
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Apr 26 2004, 01:41 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Don't forget unlimited access to gamma-delta-ultra-mega ware that is twice as effective with no essence cost.
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