Thoughts on well developed first person adventure games with FPS elements..., ...that don't necessarily have mandatory mountains of corpses Options

[Wounded Ronin]

So, recently, out of nostalgia, I watched part of a longplay of No One Lives Forever on Youtube.

Looking back on that most excellent game, I could not help but marvel at all the humor worked into the gameplay, well designed sets and items, and funny dialogue in the game, all well implemented.

But, also looking back at it with fresh perspective after not having played it for years and any FPS games since last November, I noticed that the one aspect of the game that in fact didn't really gel with or really commemorate spy entertainment media from the late 1960s and early 70s was the body count.

I mean, when you go back and look for actual shows of the era like "The Girl from UNCLE" on YouTube, or even watch really early James Bond films like Dr. No, and then you compare the body count, quantity and type of weapons displayed, and acts of killing versus Cate Archer sprinting through a Communist research lab with a Walther MPL and AK 47 and slaughtering pretty much a whole platoon of responding military personnel complete with blood spray effects on walls and casings with physics that collect on tabletops and roll off and people being shot in the face, there's almost a huge disconnect between the genre emulation, historical portrayals of the genre, and the mandates of a first person, well, shooter produced in the 2000s.

With that aspect of the game, it felt more like I was watching Platoon in terms of the violence of actions portrayed and the numbers of corpses accumulating on the floor (possibly NSFW due to bulldozing corpses after a battle): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJZGR2FaDA

I remember how, in contrast, back in Dr. No from 1962, Sean Connery's Bond was a monumental badass because he basically was able to rough people up while interrogating them, kill people in self defense using a little Walther PPK, and sport a blue terrycloth robe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw61uyA0F8A

The persona of James Bond, at that time, is a tough guy who isn't afraid to rough people up, but doesn't really have the super commando aspect where he's rocking chain headshots while walking while firing a combat handgun from 50 feet away; that kind of thing is really more a modern element, I think. And I also think that most of the spy genre stuff from the 60s in televison and movies was, if anything, less violent and hardcore than Dr. No.


All this leads me to think about how in this day and age, there's been a lot of really wonderful stuff done with immersion, physics simulation, world detailing, light and water affects, and so on with first person engines for video games. There's even been some excellent stuff done with increasingly realistic portrayals of firearms, including some games where you have to clear stoppages, and where the game keeps track of whether or not there is a round in your chamber.

But at the same time, it also seems like outside of indie studios, the classic "adventure game" genre has kind of fallen by the wayside. Those games tended to be all about immersion, story, etc., but usually they were frustrating as hell in my experience because you had to figure out a precise proscribed solution for each situation.

Many of the elements of immersion and storytelling are now possible through FPS games, but FPS games now have mandatory mountains of corpses and platoons of enemies versus one protagonist, which are not going to really be in line with many types of stories or situations or genres that a game designer might concievably want to portray.


I've been thinking it would be kind of cool or interesting if someone used a nice, immersive FPS genre to create an adventure game scenario of some kind which is deep and interesting and maybe realistic, even where there could be the potential for something violent to happen, but where that's not necessarily the big emphasis of the game.

The example that immediately comes to mind is "Burden of 80 Proof", a Deus Ex mod that uses the Unreal engine to create an adventure game where you basically run around trying to organize a weekend party. It was extremely funny and immersive and was completely non-violent, but also kind of outlandish and not realistic.

But what about making something immersive and detailed that is realistic? For example, the player is a private investigator in a small to moderately sized town who is hired to get photographic evidence of an affair so that the client can get divorced. You have all the pieces there. You can build the world in terms of buildings and NPCs. You have your stealth engine. Maybe there's certain situations where one of the NPCs can attempt to murder you in a rage if he discovers you, and you have the opportunity to shoot him with your CCW piece, and that uses the combat engine. But a lot of the development could focus on scripting really good or detailed NPC responses to actions, and on filling the world with little details. If there's only one potential shootout in the game, you could put tons of development on accurately portraying just one or two handguns, realistic trauma decals, overpenetration, and so on. You could spend your time trying to figure out how to implement or portray detailed and realistic consequences for everything that happens.

Just some food for thought, I guess.

[DamHawke]

As a fan of adventure games in general, someone needs to make this happen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I like point and click just as much as the next person but this angle of adventure gaming isn't explored enough.

[pbangarth]

I guess one issue is that those who make the games must be convinced that such a game will sell. How does one go about convincing them?

[Thanee]

Did you try L.A. Noir?

Bye
Thanee

[Tanegar]

I would fucking love to see a No One Lives Forever 3 that keeps the humor and the atmosphere (and Magnus Armstrong!) while placing more emphasis on stealth and espionage. Hell, I 'd love to see a No One Lives Forever 3, full stop.

[_Pax._]

I guess one issue is that those who make the games must be convinced that such a game will sell. How does one go about convincing them?

Get them to do it as a KickStarter.

[Wounded Ronin]

Did you try L.A. Noir?

Bye
Thanee

I did! That game also had mondo massive shootouts, each one making the St. Valentine Day's Massacre look like an episode of Barney and Friends.

And not to mention you play a cop with Mutant Power: Regeneration.

[CanRay]

And not to mention you play a cop with Mutant Power: Regeneration.

Cole Phelps get hat shot off, COLE PHELPS MAD! COLE PHELPS KILL EVERYBODY!!!

Right after I take a moment to scoop up my hat and make sure it's adjusted properly.

[Wounded Ronin]

I thought the cutscenes were going to show him being some kind of triple Medal of Honor badass in the Pacific, considering how he chews through men's souls like popcorn in LA.

[CanRay]

I thought the cutscenes were going to show him being some kind of triple Medal of Honor badass in the Pacific, considering how he chews through men's souls like popcorn in LA.

Silver Star is badass enough.

That said, what he got it for sickens him, and it shows even from the first mission while he's a beat cop.

[StealthSigma]

When you say piles of bodies.... do you mean dead or unconscious....

Because I'm playing a stealth first person game right now where there's an achievement for completing the game without killing anyone....

[Wounded Ronin]

When you say piles of bodies.... do you mean dead or unconscious....

Because I'm playing a stealth first person game right now where there's an achievement for completing the game without killing anyone....

Do you think that the unconsciousness is a detailed and convincing portrayal of unconsciousness?

Just a thought, not a rhetorical question.

[_Pax._]

I'm pretty sure he means Dishonored.

And, dead or unconscious, the bodies are limp burdens. However, when close, there is a muffled snoring sound from them.

[Blade]

I've been thinking the same thing when I compared the first Die Hard movie and the game based on it. One of the base concept of the movie is that John McLane has to be careful not to be overwhelmed by a handful of terrorists. The video games adaptations transformed this handful of terrorists into armies.

I guess it would be possible to make an interesting, tense game while keeping the premises of the movie, but this would be harder to market.

I've once read that Romero or Carmack said that video games needed stories as much as porn movies do. I think that most FPS actually follow that idea. A porn movie can have any theme or story, but it's still mostly about people having sex. Good movies will use there theme/story to make the sex part more interesting, but they still won't be about their theme or story. The format forbids it, since you can't correctly develop a story if you have to spend 90% of the time showing sex scenes (unless you're able to make the story progress during the sex scenes, which is difficult but might be possible). It's the same for FPS: at heart they're just here to let the player shoot at things/enemies.

To keep with the metaphor, a first-person adventure game with FPS element would be like an adventure movie with a few sex scenes. This is completely possible, but when the public demands porn movies, you'll have a hard time selling your concept to a producer.

[nezumi]

I don't think "48 Hour Stake Out: The Game" would really be a winner. There's not a lot of traction for "do someone else's dayjob", including "hang out by the motel and catch photos of Mr. Smith canoodling his secretary". That isn't to say that a realistic adventure game couldn't work, but you need something to pin it on, and it needs to be exciting.

As an aside, could you perhaps name some of those early adventure games you're imagining? Are you including puzzle games like Myst?

[Wounded Ronin]

I don't think "48 Hour Stake Out: The Game" would really be a winner. There's not a lot of traction for "do someone else's dayjob", including "hang out by the motel and catch photos of Mr. Smith canoodling his secretary". That isn't to say that a realistic adventure game couldn't work, but you need something to pin it on, and it needs to be exciting.

As an aside, could you perhaps name some of those early adventure games you're imagining? Are you including puzzle games like Myst?

I guess that Myst would be a kind of super avante garde take on what I'd had in mind.

I was thinking things like the original Police Quest, or the various Roberta Williams adventure games ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Williams ) like King's Quest or Phantasmagoria. Or even those old text based adventures like Leather Goddess of Phobos.