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[Rev]

Are a dual natured things hands abnormal weapons?

More specifically do they negate immunity to normal weapons. I was reading the sections on astral perception and astral combat, and it seems to me that perhaps anyone who is astrally perceiving can use unarmed combat against materialized spirits and not be affected by immunity to natural weapons.

Is there anything more specific that says this is not true, or is true, or does anbyody have an opinion on it they want to share?

[Ecclesiastes]

You would be correct sir. That is why it is worth it for Adepts to spend 2 points on Astral Perception.

[Erebus]

Can't anyone use willpower as unarmed combat to fight a materialized spirit without dealing with immunity to natural weapons?

[TinkerGnome]

Hmm... an interesting way to look at it. I'm not quite sure you can't do that ;)

You can normally attack with willpower and deal damage with charisma, but it's really sucky for most characters. The unarmed combat and physical stats thing is likely a lot better.

[RedmondLarry]

Our team plays differently from Ecclesiastes. We play that if two opponents are both dual, then their melee is handled according to the physical rules, where the immunity to normal weapons is present.

Many places in the books indicate that a PhysAd needs Killing Hands to get around a spirits Immunity Power, and no where does it indicate that Astral Perception gets around it.

[Rev]

Hmm so would you then rule that a non-manifesting spirit also has protection from immunity to normal weapons against perceivers, or that a fully astral spirit could gain that protection from an astrally perceiving enemy by manifesting?

Are permenantly dual natured entities affected by immunity to normal weapons?

The passage in the astral combat section said something like "adepts gain full benefits from killing hands".

[Lilt]

IMHO it would bypass the immunity, especially if the character uses sorcery to make the astral combat attack.

[RedmondLarry]

The spirit gets no Immunity while fully astral. The Immunity is only a side affect of it's Materialization Power (SR3.264). While Materialized it has Immunity to Normal Weapons. Killing Hands and active Weapon Foci bypass the Immunity. And the spirit gets only 1/2 benefit against Elemental affects. (SR3.264).

[A Clockwork Lime]

If I recall correctly, the rules regarding Killing Hands simply state that they work in astral combat and that it also negates Immunity to Normal Weapons. That doesn't mean, or even really imply, that Killing Hands is the only way to get around Immunity to Normal Weapons. All it really implies is that Killing Hands works against Immunity to Normal Weapons against materialized spirits, and it also provides its standard bonus on the astral plane.

[Rev]

Edit err yea, read that wrong.

To be clear you are saying that in two separate places the rules say:
"they work in astral combat"
and
"that it also negates Immunity to Normal Weapons"
It does not say those two things together anywhere.

Right?

[mfb]

the rules on pg 172 of SR3 say that "you can engage in combat with other astral forms using your physical attributes and skills." from the descriptions on page 171, it's obvious that a dual-natured being is present on the astral plane--that is, he has an astral form. ergo, if two beings are dual, they can engage each other in purely astral combat.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying Rev. Killing Hands ignores Immunity to Normal Weapons. Killing Hands also works on the astral just like it does on the physical. Those are two seperate things that are unrelated beyond the fact that they're both traits of Killing Hands.

[Cain]

That's how I read it, too. An astrally-percieving adept can deal his normal damage to astral creatures. Assuming he doesn't have a weapon focus or Killing Hands, that means he deals (Str) M Stun in astral combat. If he has Killing Hands, but not astral perception, he can use it to full effect on materialized spirits/dual entities (but can't target purely astral spirits). If he has both, his Killing Hands damage *is* his normal damage, so it still works.

[TinkerGnome]

I like the reading. It makes the fact that astral perception costs 2 points more understandable ;)