 General Electric Vindicator Minigun, Not related to putting rounds down range |
  |
 Apr 23 2004, 10:32 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514  |
Okay some questions about the General Electric Vindicator minigun.
|
 |
 
|
|
Apr 23 2004, 10:46 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Noise profile? For god's sake, we're talking about a minigun. This is not an execise in subtlety. If you turn it on, people will notice. That's all there is to it.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 23 2004, 10:48 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Man, I hate it when I'm trying to make a stealthy insertion and the noise of my minigun gives me away. :eek:
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 23 2004, 11:11 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
When a non-wired person fires a Vindicator minigun, the RoF is 450 rounds per minute. The six barrels thus rotate at a whopping 75 rotations per minute. Starting from these fucking moronic numbers, you can logically deduce that the "whirring" sound is inherent to the electric motor. Things don't rotate much slower than that.
With Real Life miniguns, you can usually use different firing speeds with the flick of a switch. However, RL miniguns usually vary between ~2000rpm and ~6000rpm -- seeing as how Shadowrun miniguns fire at a pitiful fraction of those rates, you can again logically deduce that technology has regressed so much as to disallow such things. If such a switch to change the RoF existed, and I strongly suggest you don't allow for it other than perhaps reduce the RoF (without any bonuses, just reduce RoF), it could easily be cybernetically controlled, either with a Smartlink or through a VCR in a rigged vehicle. To make it fire anything other than what it fires, you'd have to change almost everything. All barrels, all four bolts, the whole feed system, everything. Far too much modification unless you're in the business of building guns and own a "Heavy Weapons B/R Shop". Basically, you'd just salvage a few parts from it and plagiarize the design to make your own minigun in some other caliber. Why the hell you'd want it in a rather light pistol caliber, I just don't get. You'd cut the range to about 1/6th the original and the penetration would be far worse. In SR game terms, if you manage to do the caliber-changing operation, it might be dropped to 6M Damage Code, SMG Ranges, no doubled recoil. Nix on belted ammo, unless you want to hand-craft every single chain link or own a decent-quality metalworking facility. Since the weapon is a "Light Machine Gun" damage-wise, it fires what passes as the 5.56x45mm of the 2060s. That doesn't mean it fires 5.56x45mm, just something like it. The MMG-damage minigun in R3 probably fires what passes as the 7.62x51mm of the 2060s, and the HMG one fires something akin to the .50BMG. You really shouldn't use that sort of comparison, though, because the Damage Codes are really fucked up. You'll just get a head ache. I think shortening or lengthening the barrels should have exactly the effects listed for those modification in Cannon Companion, ie shorter/longer range. You might have to fine-tune the electric motor to keep the rate of rotation the same when the weight of the barrels changes. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 23 2004, 11:16 PM |
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 08:05 AM
Post
#5
|
|||||||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I think thats a pretty narrow minded view of things. Look at this way. A helicopter is a large and noisy thing, and by your logic it shouldn't be able to surprise anyone right? After all its big and noisy. Yet it happens all the time. This has nothing to do with actually firing the weapon. It has everything to do with moving to a point with a weapon silently. Its hard to maximize suppressive fire and maneuver if you can't get into position. No firing is involved here. I"ll say it one more time, just for anybody who is missing it, the weapon is not being fired, yet. Once its fired it doesn't matter what its noise profile is. At that point the team will have achieved superior positioning which will give them clear interlocking fields of fire. Its getting to that position thats the hard part. Does that make it any clearer?
Yeah I pretty much posted this in hopes of attracting Raygun and his brand of Gun-fu.
Thats a bit extreme for me. I see it as a rule that simply has failed (In my case, and maybe in yours as well, but overall it serves its purpose) and that now needs a bit of logical thought, and updating. If anything I refuse to accept the idea that technology has regressed in the SR world. That just doesn't jive with my game concept.
I am not intrested in reducing the rate of fire, hell I am not intrested in firing at all. It just makes sense that an elite unit utilizing this weapon may modify it so they can utilize it better, and under different conditions. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 09:02 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That does make things much clearer, actually. In that case, it really comes down to how much you're willing to modify the rate of fire. After all, at 450 rpm as canon states, that thing is barely better than a greasegun. If you're interested in modifying it to act like a real minigun, then, yes, noise can be an issue. From there, I imagine it's possible to dampen this effect to some degree, but I wouldn't expect to much. Rotation at those speeds is going to create a fair amount of noise.
As for Austere's comments about tech regressing, you can safely assume that was sarcastic. Ridicule of canon Shadowrun's deeply idiotic and far too common problems is something of a pastime. I think he pretty much nailed everything else, in any case. As for your use of a minigun for a special ops team, I find this kind of silly. These things, even for a troll, are not exactly the most mobile of weapons. An LMG or MMG of some sort would be far more flexible and far more likely to be seen in the hands of special forces operators for just those reasons. Unless, of course, this is a very specialized and necessary application, in which case I'm not really in a position to comment. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 09:26 AM
Post
#7
|
|||||||||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Well I am glad its somewhat clearer. I am not intrested in the rate of fire at all. In fact I am not intrested in firing the weapon at all in the this particular case. Only carrying it quietly as possible. The ROF is a sidetrack, albiet an intresting one, and one worth lookign at as well.
Okay, I'll take your word on that. I didn't know the guy or the community well enough (Anymore anyways...) to catch that. Thanks for clarifying for me! :D
That is your right.
I absolutely agree, especially considering it is being used in conjunction with a Max Gyromount. Do keep in mind though automatic weapons are used in a variety of applications. As a former Marine infantryman I could bore you with stories about people using weapons like these in a number of ways that don't seem to jibe too well with the gamer police that seem to be pretty frequent posters around here. (The "That's so not shadworun" crowd. I get a kick out of people who presume to quantively judge other people's fictitous games.But I digress...) Sufficient to say Shadowrunners are not normal people, and the circumstances surronding them are also not normal as well. Otherwise we'd have opposed rolls for doing the dishes. (Hey its your game too, if that flips your switch, then have at it I say.)
Uhmmm, the Vindicator is an LMG. What you mean is a more conventional weapon is likley to see more use for a variety of reasons? Is that what you intended. In which case I would agree with you that the "M60" is much more likley to see use in your everyday "SpecOps" team for ease of use, training, modular supply, etc...
What you've never made a character who does something flawed? :) Or played a PC who has a favorite weapon? This just happens to fit in with this particular players character. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 09:53 AM
Post
#8
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Actually, it's very Shadowrun. You see trolls dragging Assault Cannons and Vindicators around all the time per SR canon. I was really saying it's a fairly unrealistic approach for a professional to take, barring very unusual and exacting circumstances well beyond what a normal run, operation, mission, etc would call for.
Technically, yes, go ahead and call it an LMG. I should've clarified that I mean something along the lines of a squad automatic weapon; something relatively basic, still potent, and man portable, really. So, yes, something along the lines of a real life M60 or M249 or whatever was what I had in mind.
Shut up. I'm perfect. Ok, ok, that's fair. Incidentally, you did have me confused over your use, hence why I found the request kind of silly. The line about an elite unit being able to modify the weapon seemed to point in the direction of this being applied to some sort of special operations unit. This does make more sense. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 10:11 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
For ease of reference I thought I would post this, from the Noise Center link I grabbed earlier today. It gives a decent idea of what noise level is and what ambient noises rate.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 10:28 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 30-May 03 From: Tulsa, OK Member No.: 4,652 |
170 shotgun
180 rocket launching from pad in decicels for those that didn't look... I find that rather intriguing for some reason. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 11:40 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Cast a silence spell on that minigun and you are done. If there is no Canon mundane method, most surely there is a magical solution.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:14 PM
Post
#12
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Raygun is a busy man, you usually get a boatload of replies from us fanboys before you get the real thing. :) That way the people who know the answers to the easy questions can answer those, and the people who know the answers to the hard ones can concentrate on them.
Like Arethusa implied, I too refuse to accept the idea that technology has regressed in the SR world. However, if you try to think of any Shadowrun canon weapons in RL terms, you simply cannot draw any other conclusions. Your options, then, are to: 1) Not think about canon Shadowrun weapons in RL terms, and simply accept them as part of a not-extremely-realistic game. 2) Ditch canon Shadowrun weapons and several rules in order to make a more realistic game where guns can be thought of in RL terms. However, since you apparently aren't particularly interested in how the weapon would work within Shadowrun rules, let's look at the logical side of things first: Yes, all miniguns are extremely likely to be capable of changing their RoFs, and thus rotation speeds, with a thought when smartlinked/rigged. Even now this doesn't require any overcharging of the motor, the weapon can accommodate a large variety of RoFs within standard operational parameters. I doubt even the absolute maximum RoFs are limited so much by the electric motor as they are by the operation of the weapon -- the feed system, I believe, does cause some problems once you go into the 5-digit RoFs. A sliding, continuous control of the RoF does not sound very likely. There could be a dozen different settings (from 600rpm to 6,000rpm in steps of 500, or something like that) and the operator could change between those on the fly. I do not see a technological problem with allowing a change of the RoF while firing, although it would take (a rather insignificant amount of) time to accelerate to the new RoF. As a sideline from that, all miniguns are/should be capable of firing immediately when you depress the trigger, starting at a "low" RoF of perhaps ~600rpm for the first few shots and accelerating quickly into the high RoF in the span of well under a second -- I think 0.2-0.5 seconds depending on the weapons and required RoF. The sound of rotating barrels/the electric motor should not ever be an issue because of that alone. The noise created by the electric motor could probably be muffled to be almost inaudible, but it usually drowns under the shots fired anyway. I'm assuming Paul is considering the use of light miniguns by personnel in a role similar to LMGs? (I doubt many people would ever call a minigun a LMG IRL, regardless of the caliber.) There are a whole number of reasons why this doesn't happen IRL, and those reasons are very, very likely to still be around in 60 years. Weight/size, difficulty of handling, inaccuracy, ammo consumption and recoil I think are the central problems. Weight/size: Even the smaller RL minigun I'm aware of, the experimental 5.56x45mm caliber XM214, weighed 15kg empty without a power source. The length of such a weapon is well over a meter, and it's around 4"-5" wide/high. The GE Vindicator is listed as 15kg with a power source in the Cannon Companion. That's one hell of a heavy weapon to be lugging around, compared to 5-7kg LMGs or even 7-10kg MMGs. You can make the weapon lighter by limiting the max RoF, but that largely defeats the purpose of a minigun. Handling: A 15kg, 1-meter steel penis on your hip doesn't help you move much. It would never be carried if the operators were expected to have to fight within a confined space. Even in a forest or similar area it makes moving a lot more difficult. And now if you have to tack a gyromount on it, your maneuverability is the infantry equivalent of a B52. Without a gyromount, you cannot possibly fire the weapon at any meaninful rate. Inaccuracy: Most applications of miniguns rely on the "shotgun effect" of an inaccurate weapon firing at an insane RoF. This makes miniguns very useful for firing at fast-moving objects, such as aircraft and missiles, or for anti-personnel (or anti-vehicle with really large guns) fire from a moving platform that does not suffer from weight, size, handling or recoil problems (read: helicopters and sometimes aircraft). These two applications cover about 99% of all minigun-use in modern armies. An infantryman might not be thrilled by the fact that the inherent inaccuracy will spread the bullets over a 2-meter diameter area at 500 meters. Ammo consumption: At 100 rounds per second, we could be looking at a kilogram of ammunition being fired per second -- and that's with very light ammunition, such as polymer-cased equivalents of 5.56x45mm. 9x19mm cartridges weigh at least as much. Even at 50 rounds per second we're looking at insane amounts of rounds. If you get much lower than that, you might as well get a high-quality regular LMG modified to fire at ~1500rpm. Recoil: A gyromount might get rid of most of the swaying of the weapon and spread the force of the recoil over a large area, but the gun is still pushing the firer straight back with the same amount of force. With an AR-caliber minigun at 6000rpm, you'd have to take a well-supported stance with your weight well forward before you start firing. Moving while firing, or even changing your facing while firing, could prove all but impossible. Again, you can get rid of this problem for the most part by reducing the RoF, but that still means you're also giving away the very reason why anyone would use a minigun in the first place. In addition to all this, special forces personnel on the ground are extremely unlikely to ever require the special abilities afforded by miniguns. A LMG or MMG does most stuff just as well or better. Even for suppressive fire a lower RoF is more practical, and infantry won't need to shoot down many low-firing aircraft or missiles. Combined with everythin above, this completes the AE List Of Reasons Why Miniguns Aren't Über-Infantry Weapons. I can tear into the rules-aspect of miniguns next, if anyone wants me to. There the most important aspect of Miniguns vs One-Barreled Conventional Automatic Firearms is how you handle Fully Automatic fire in your games. [Edit]Forgot calibers and barrel length. A minigun in a pistol caliber is, IRL, almost totally useless. At the ranges where a pistol caliber weapon is useful, the inherent problems of miniguns (mainly weight, size and handling) are crippling. With a minigun, you usually want to be as far away from the enemy as you can. Shortening the barrels might help handling in tight spaces slightly, but it would also shorten the range of the weapon, which is Not A Good Thing, like above. In tight spaces a minigun is an inferior weapon anyway, so you might as well concentrate on the advantages that it does have -- ie keep using it in vehicles, and give infantrymen more practical weapons.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 24 2004, 02:22 PM |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:15 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
The motor that spins the barrels is little different than the motors used in electric drones, just add sound baffle mods from R3, you'll have to work with your GM to get the FCU, etc. just right, but if they can make quiet fans for computers, quiet steel for pickup trucks they sure as hell can make a quieter motor for a mini-gun. they just didn't because half the fun IMO is the expression of the NPC's faces (or the PC's) when that whir starts and they know it isn't one of theirs.
:evil: |
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:32 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Why not use another LMG they are already "stealthy" compared to the Vindicator? The electric whirring and the spinning barrels of a gatling gun are for psychological warfare. :D
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:34 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I agree.
[ Spoiler ]
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:42 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I somehow managed to miss the "flawed character" bit. Sorry. Yes, it's conceivable that someone could use miniguns. There's no practical reason to, but that certainly shouldn't stop anyone in a RPG. In this case, the RoF has to be kept rather slow and the weapon made as light as possible. Shortening the barrels a bit (as in the modification in CC) is certainly worth considering, if you don't fight at long ranges a lot. The caliber should still be kept the same, because a pistol-caliber minigun is a really bad idea overall. And expect for the character to be ridiculed by everyone with Heavy Weapons Background Knowledge. This might be slightly balanced by the amount of panic carrying one causes. Very large guns are funny in that you can sometimes get away with carrying them in plain sight for a while, because people might consider them to be toys instead of actual weapons.
Fortunately IRL the electric whirring is a non-issue because of several reasons I mentioned above. People noticed 50 years back that firing 100 bullets at the enemy per second is a lot more effective a method of scaring them than an electric whirring. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 24 2004, 02:44 PM |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 24 2004, 02:56 PM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I know the whirring is a non-issue, I was referencing a passage in one the books, it is probably one of the older ones, where they talk about the whirring being very frightening. I think the lead spewing from the gun would be a lot more mentally effective, not to mention the tongue of flame coming out of it. OR is that only on the really big gatling guns? I was also just commenting on the ludicrous notion of trying to sneak with a gatling gun. Makeing all those modifications to a gun. When you can just get a regular LMG that doesn't have all those flaws, especially in a game that really gives no benefits to the gatling gun over a regular LMG.
Paint it orange. Most people in America will think it is a toy because the laws being passed saying that toy guns have to painted to look fake so police will stop shooting kids. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 24 2004, 03:14 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
LOL, don't forget purple and puke-green too. now the toys have to be an eye-wrenching color scheme or so it would seem.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 03:35 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
Hmm... Reminds me of a conversation not too long ago with a manager in Toys'R'us. A 'green' director suggested we could get our guns from a toy-shop but he was told that it was not an option. Toys'R'Us just doesn't sell anything bordering on realistic... Depressing, when I remember being able to buy realistic cap-guns. One that sticks out was a half-scale minigun. It ran from batteries and you could feed strip-caps into it. Probably had a RoF around 120 pops/min but I always thought it would make an interesting addition to my collection. It got withdrawn from sale (for some reason, perhaps people were scared it might get used in a bank hold-up) before I could buy one though. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 24 2004, 03:54 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think the constant flame is there with the smaller caliber miniguns, too. Below cannon calibers, miniguns rarely have any sort of flash hiders, so the muzzle flash from a single round is much more pronounced than on an assault rifle. Since the RoF doesn't get any bigger with the larger miniguns, the rate of flashes per second remains the same and thus the flame is present on all miniguns as long as the RoF is set high enough. Can't say what the limit RoF is for the human eye to see a constant flame. The size of the flame is likely to be constant relative to the size of the gun, or close to it. The picture on the top of this page shows what I think is an M134 7.62x51mm minigun. The muzzle flash is quite big enough. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 24 2004, 05:23 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
You can check e-bay (make a search for "replica") for neat looking guns. I still damn the fact you can't import replicas here in Canada, cause it seems like the kind of props that might liven up a game! |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 05:29 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Once, having forgotten that an airsoft shot on bare skin at 2 meters can hurt, when a player just shrugged and didn't roleplay the effects of getting a Serious wound from a rifle shot to his helmet, I shot him in the forehead with my airsoft gun. That certainly livened up that game.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 06:43 PM
Post
#23
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Absolutely.
Beautiful. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 24 2004, 07:55 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Yeah, online only games with you, AE. :D
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 24 2004, 08:37 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Some time ago I encountered this article.
If you don't really feel like reading, basically the idea is that you can hook up some microphones and some speak to a microprocessor, and have the speakers produce soundwaves that cancel out the sound produced by a motor through interference. While it isn't *perfect* now, the actual mechanical noise of the fan can be completely negated, and the technology would certainly be better in the 2060's. I see no reason why it couldnt be applied to something like a minigun. It's a much more elegant solution to the problem than attempting to reduce noise through altering barrel rotation speed. Here is some more stuff about it, though not as much as I would like. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 10th July 2025 - 05:37 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.