Get your Zeta Bravo today!, FIRE SALE AT DASSAULT! Options

[hermit]

Okay, since I was bored today, I compared real fighter jets and their Shadowrun equivalents. And I noticed the prices.

... what.

An F-22 Raptor has a single unit cost of about 189.3 million USD. For that, you get a top-of-the-line 5th generation air superiority fighter. Of course, arms salers are always bulk sales, but bear with me.

In Shadowrun, used F-22 clock in at 15.5 Nuyen. You get an obsolescent craft (you can upgrade it for 1.5 million though) that has decent stats. Time is not kind to old military hardware and it's 60 years in the future, so that price drop is coneivable. Same with other planes, like the Rafale (90 mn to 7 mn), Eurofighter (117 mn to 8,9 mn) or PAK FA (57 mn to 9 mn).

However, Shadowrun's top-end air superiority fighter, the Dassault Zeta Bravo, is on sale at 3,8 million per unit. What the hell. Even if slaves developed the plane and it is built in nanoprinting shenanigans, 3.8 million for the world's standard in high-performance air supremacy? Hello? You'd get 0.02 raptors for that price when it was new, or 0.23 raptors when it is 70 years old! What is this, a fire sale for top-of-the-line fighter jets?

Was there some thought behind this, like, it's built in nanovats and was developed using only existing components and magic so it didn't end up a desaster like the F35? Or was it just a random number so PCs could afford the plane too because reasons?

[O'Ryan]

"Ares Macrotechnology, in conjunction with Lockheed, bring you... the Dassault Zeta Bravo! Now even the most frugal of warlords can afford to buy the best. Already an established power? Our pricing sceme will encourage you to upgrade immediately instead of doing what governments do and sit on ancient tech for 40 years!"

...it's got to be a marketing thing, right? I mean some of the F-22 can be chalked up to the government always overpaying, most often grossly, an item's value (In some cases 4-5x), but that doesn't explain the DZB. I would have to put it down to a marketing decision.. just like how the Predator IV is 350 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but an equivalent pistol IRL is $1000+

[hermit]

Even if the US would buy the cheapest alternative, the Su PAK-FA (less stealthy, but you get 3,3 for a Raptor's worth), we'd still be looking at 57 million per unit.

Yeah, could be marketing, but for such an expensive and, in the end, niche product? The Predator can probably cut cost by bulk production and cheap production methods, but even there, we have "only" a third of the price of a real equivalent, not 2% (that'd be a pistol for 20 Nuyen). The mind boggles more than a bit.

[O'Connor]

Prices in SR are wonky. First, 1 nuyen does not equal 1 USD in value. the Nuyen is probably closer to the pound, though probably valued slightly higher then that as well.

Second, the price of an F22 is based on the contract price, which was measured in billions split between X planes. That number got cut off by the obama administration but not before the full contract was paid. which increases the base cost of the F22 by a fair bit.

The .gov contract for these things are built to also pay for the rather substantial RnD costs. *if* a corp handled the R&D in house and sold them by the gross to everyone, they could probably drop the price substantially... but 3.8 mill seems low.

Maybe 10ish Million in that particular case

[hermit]

*if* a corp handled the R&D in house and sold them by the gross to everyone, they could probably drop the price substantially... but 3.8 mill seems low.

R&D in-house doesn't pay itself either. It is unlikely to be much more effective either, though there might be less interference from all kinds of agencies that want another capability in (which drove the F35 to projected unit prices of 400 mil per plane for the F35C). The corp still has to recuperate these costs. So not that much of a difference really. Maybe the price won't be a s high as the F22, but substantially lower than their Russian or Chinese equivalents seems very unlikely.

Plus, who is Aztech trying to undercut here? Tehy have the Fairlight Excalibur of fighter jets. Unmatched, unsurpassed. Well, the Kanyuk, which clocks in at ... 3 mil. And is from War.

I think we found where this madness originated ...

[binarywraith]

R&D in-house doesn't pay itself either. It is unlikely to be much more effective either, though there might be less interference from all kinds of agencies that want another capability in (which drove the F35 to projected unit prices of 400 mil per plane for the F35C). The corp still has to recuperate these costs. So not that much of a difference really. Maybe the price won't be a s high as the F22, but substantially lower than their Russian or Chinese equivalents seems very unlikely.

Plus, who is Aztech trying to undercut here? Tehy have the Fairlight Excalibur of fighter jets. Unmatched, unsurpassed. Well, the Kanyuk, which clocks in at ... 3 mil. And is from War.

I think we found where this madness originated ...

On the docks of Bogota, I see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[CanRay]

Don't forget that militaries don't have the budgets they used to. Governments are strapped, and kept so by the Corporations.

The Megas, of course, keep the best stuff for themselves, and sell the same gear to AA-Level Corps as they do to Governments.

[hermit]

I am not questioning that at all. I am questioning the pprice they demand for their gear. 3.8 Million ... with luck, you find used indian MiG 21 for that price per unit today (the lowest-priced fighter with a somewhat fitting profile would be a basic MiG 29, which clocks in at 11 million USD apiece). You'd be hard pressed to find a decent MBT for that price, let alone the extremely complex composition of cutting edge materials, software and sensors that make an air superiority fighter.

Even in pound or Euros, 3.8 million apiece is hilariously low for such a plane.

On the docks of Bogota, I see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Don't mock the brave subway jockeys of Bogotá. Many didn't come back from their hazardous travels up or down the Tequendama Fall.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Oh, this is nothing against the B-6 LeMay from MilSpecTech2.
21.000.000 nY versus ~2.000.000.000$ for a B-2 Spirit.

[hermit]

Yeah, that slipped by me. Good Ghost ... On the other hand, back in 1E? A Banshee was 10 mn, and an Eagle was 50 mn. Sounds more reasonable to me.

[Mantis]

It isn't quite that bad. Here are the conversion rates for nuyen to UCAS dollars.
http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/codb.shtml

At a 4:1 rate the planes clock in at 15.2 million dollars each. Yeah, still cheap but not quite so bad. That also puts the Ares Predator IV at $1,400, which is actually more expensive than a comparable IRL gun. I think part of the problem is equating nuyen to current US dollars. Though I will agree the prices still seem very low on some stuff.
On the other hand, since they have figured out how to make panzers work, which is basically a flying tank that can break the sound barrier, and be relatively economical, perhaps the cost for the tech going into an airplane is just that much cheaper in SR.

[Ryu]

Or maybe the corps are no longer allowed to put all kinds of "general research costs" on government contracts. If the military industrial complex was about providing value to the customer, stuff would be much cheaper. Nanotech production processes will also help. And then weapons research is on a curve of diminishing returns. At some point you can skimp on RD altogether and use tried-and-true tech.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

It isn't quite that bad. Here are the conversion rates for nuyen to UCAS dollars.
http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/codb.shtml

At a 4:1 rate the planes clock in at 15.2 million dollars each. Yeah, still cheap but not quite so bad. That also puts the Ares Predator IV at $1,400, which is actually more expensive than a comparable IRL gun. I think part of the problem is equating nuyen to current US dollars. Though I will agree the prices still seem very low on some stuff.
On the other hand, since they have figured out how to make panzers work, which is basically a flying tank that can break the sound barrier, and be relatively economical, perhaps the cost for the tech going into an airplane is just that much cheaper in SR.

Try to relate the costs to lifestyle costs. A Predator IV costs about 1/6 of a low lifestyle. I have ~1.000€ / month, and i would set my lifestyle as "low". A standard light pistol (Glock 17) costs about 500€, or 1/2 of my low lifestyle, a heavy pistol (Glock 20, 21, 22, 23, 24) costs ~650-1000€.

[hermit]

It isn't quite that bad. Here are the conversion rates for nuyen to UCAS dollars.

But the UCASD is not a key currency anymore. The Nuyen is, however. Granted, there might be some deflation due to the Nuyen's strength (and the UCAS' economical weakness - it has, for instance, the same poverty levels as contemporary India, which is worse even than the contemporary US). Equating UCASD and USD is not feasible, I think. USA and UCAS are miles and miles apart in everything.

[Nath]

Poverty Rate may not be a good indicator if, as nowadays, every country use a different method to determine where stands the Poverty Line.

If you stick to canon, according to Shadows of North America, the UCAS nonetheless have Per Capita Income of 28,000¥, which would give a GDP (if calculated as sum total of incomes) of 4.8 trillions nuyen. Of course, we don't know what the tax level is. The Corporate expects megacorporation to pay taxes, minus I guess an accepted level of fiscal optimization, but I'm not sure corporate employees would pay income taxes if they live inside extraterritorial facilities and if VAT is payed in extraterritorial shops. It's thus difficult to estimate the actual UCAS budget.

The income numbers are, on the other hand, problematic unto themselves, since if you look at all the Shadows of ... sourcebook (circa 2062-2064), you'd have a lot of people complaining that Japan isn't where it ought to be:

India 9.6 trillion
UCAS 4.8 trillion
Aztlan 4.1 trillion
Japan 4 trillion
Germany 3.2 trillion
CAS 2.7 trillion
Russia 2.4 trillion
France 2.1 trillion
Korea 2 trillion

If you add Shadows of Latin America, Aztlan would actually be in second place with 5.8 trillion, followed by Amazonia, 5.2 trillion.

Shadows of North America also mentions the CAS having six active Army divisions, two Marine expeditionary force and sisteen air combat squadrons, has the largest army in North America. So, logically, the UCAS have less than that.

[Sengir]

I think part of the problem is equating nuyen to current US dollars.

Even just comparing Nuyen to Nuyen prices does not make sense -- not just when comparing a 60 year old plane to a cutting-edge model, there are plenty of instances in every gear book.


As far as the economic properties of the Nuyen go, according to the BBB a fast food meal costs 5-10 ¥.

[EKBT81]

Or was it just a random number so PCs could afford the plane too because reasons?

Probably this, or at least I can't imagine any other reason. All SR aircraft prices, whether military or civilian, are ridiculously low by RL standards. IIRC the Gulfstream executive jet in Arsenal costs slightly over one million N¥, while the RL Gulfstream G500 starts at 36M USD (according to wikipedia). AFAIK even small utility helicopters like the MD500 cost low seven-figure amounts IRL.
So if you went with close-to-RL prices, by the time the PCs could afford a plane, you'd be asking why they aren't happily retired with a permanent high or even luxury lifestyle.

[Blade]

That's because they're partly ad-supported. Everytime they drop a bomb, they also drop tons of flyers for the corporation's bunkers, and they leave ads in the sky behind them:
"That was a blast! Thanks to Aztechnology top of the line armament system."

On a more serious note, the price of commodity items is mostly correct, but the price of gear is dictated more by game balance than by anything else. You don't need to look at fighter jets to find ridiculous prices.

[Neurosis]

Okay, since I was bored today, I compared real fighter jets and their Shadowrun equivalents. And I noticed the prices.

... what.

An F-22 Raptor has a single unit cost of about 189.3 million USD. For that, you get a top-of-the-line 5th generation air superiority fighter. Of course, arms salers are always bulk sales, but bear with me.

In Shadowrun, used F-22 clock in at 15.5 Nuyen. You get an obsolescent craft (you can upgrade it for 1.5 million though) that has decent stats. Time is not kind to old military hardware and it's 60 years in the future, so that price drop is coneivable. Same with other planes, like the Rafale (90 mn to 7 mn), Eurofighter (117 mn to 8,9 mn) or PAK FA (57 mn to 9 mn).

However, Shadowrun's top-end air superiority fighter, the Dassault Zeta Bravo, is on sale at 3,8 million per unit. What the hell. Even if slaves developed the plane and it is built in nanoprinting shenanigans, 3.8 million for the world's standard in high-performance air supremacy? Hello? You'd get 0.02 raptors for that price when it was new, or 0.23 raptors when it is 70 years old! What is this, a fire sale for top-of-the-line fighter jets?

Was there some thought behind this, like, it's built in nanovats and was developed using only existing components and magic so it didn't end up a desaster like the F35? Or was it just a random number so PCs could afford the plane too because reasons?

Your initial example seems to assume that $ = Nuyen, which has never been my assumption.

[bannockburn]

Your initial example seems to assume that $ = Nuyen, which has never been my assumption.

If you compare the value of both currencies, your assumption is very much wrong.
Compare the price of middle class cars, or the services on SR4a, p. 314 with today's cost averages in the US.
The Big Mac Index is very similar.

[KarmaInferno]

Even if they are different, comparing just nuyen to nuyen costs across vehicles reveals some seriously weird pricing.



-k

[Nath]

If you compare the value of both currencies, your assumption is very much wrong.
Compare the price of middle class cars, or the services on SR4a, p. 314 with today's cost averages in the US.
The Big Mac Index is very similar.

Interestingly enough, I found SR price for most things makes the cost of living in Seattle circa 2070 in nuyen, very similar to Paris circa 2010 in Euro, including lifestyle, food, entertainment, transport, cars, bikes, comlinks-versus-computers, etc. (though SR lifestyle rules would be more on target for two incomes rather than a single).

[bannockburn]

My point exactly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My personal lifestyle, including my apartment, food, electricity, internet services, and other running costs is also very close to what an SR lifestyle would cost.

[Udoshi]

Whether it is meters or dollars, I think we can definitively say that CGL just doesn't get units of measurement right.

[hermit]

What, isn't an America-class landing ship 884 meters, or 2900 feet, long? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)