Mystic Adept, Shapeshifter 400BP Options

[Sinistra]

I have been working on a Shapeshifter Mystic Adept concept and we have a few House Rules that make Mystic Adepts both better and potentially worse. (Long as you do not mind casting lower force spells.)

I was wanting to do an Eco-Warrior from the Athabaskan Council, that is a Fox Shapeshifter. There are house rules that differ from the normal Shadowrun 4E game though, and so far all players enjoy them.

Mystic Adepts, when there points are put into the magical side, that limits force of spells, and not die pool. So a 6 magic, 6 Spellcasting Mystic Adept with a 3 Magic 3 Adept split cast spells with 12 dice, but is limited to 3/6 Force for spells.
Smartlinks are limited to implant only
It is 2057 (Though all the wireless exist, I do not know if we will have a Crash 2.0 in this "timeline")
Form Fit was removed
Alternate Encumbrance threshold (Bod+Str)
Do not worry about points for Contacts(Good contacts wont cost BP, and GM will go over all an approve or disapprove.)

Books:
SR4A(20th Edition Core Book)
Arsenal
Augmentation
Runner's Companion
Running Wild
Street Magic
Unwired
Way of the Adept

I have 400 BP to work with, and I wanted to use Elemental Aura spell (Cold in this case), and be melee focused.

My own brain fails me, so I come to you looking for tips and even potential builds. I was thinking Druidic for magical tradion
I have a template below if you wish to use it.

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Fox Shapeshifter (50 BP)

BOD:
AGI:
REA:
STR:
CHA:
INT:
LOG:
WIL:
EDG:
MAG:

Positive Qualities: (10 BP)
Mystic Adept (10 BP)

Negative Qualities: (--BP)

Skills: (--BP)

Spells: (--BP) Tradition: (STAT+WIL)

Adept Powers: (--BP)

Nuyen: (--BP)

Gear:

Feel free to adjust it as you want, I just wanted to give anyone who did a build a little bit of the work already done for you.

In the meantime I am going to try and make my own again, accepting all critique because I wish I was better at making characters in this system. If you need any more info ask and I will see what I can provide.


There is a second topic with some discussion about this found here -- Thanee

[Mantis]

Not a build note per se, but the standard rule on qualities is the same as the one you have listed. You can't have more than 35BP in either negative or positive qualities by RAW, so you could remove those from your list of stuff to keep track of.

[Sinistra]

Not a build note per se, but the standard rule on qualities is the same as the one you have listed. You can't have more than 35BP in either negative or positive qualities by RAW, so you could remove those from your list of stuff to keep track of.

Thank you, I learned the character creation basics from the GM and using Chummer. So I have slightly more limited knowledge that I would like because until recently I have not had time to just sit and read all the books.

[Mantis]

Well in that case, are you sure you want to go with a mystic adept? They usually require quite a good understanding of the rules to build and develop so they don't end up sucking. I'd suggest going either full magician or full adept as that lets you concentrate on just one aspect of the magic. There is quite a bit with learning how spells work and spirits operate without adding in the mystic adept and adept powers to the mix.
If you want someone that is melee focused, you could go with a possession tradition and use the spirit powers to give you the needed boosts. This is easily done as just a pure magician. It would also let you focus your karma more effectively. No matter the magic type, they all suck up the karma like crazy but I find the mystic adepts suck it up the most having to split focus as they do.
You could also go with a pure adept and pick up Elemental Strike (cold) and be very, very good at melee. You wouldn't get spells or spirits of course but you could focus your karma on making a very effective melee fighter. Plus adepts get some damn neat powers to use outside combat. Commanding Voice is fun and if you are worried about spell defence, take the spell resistance power. Combat Senses can make it very hard for you to be hit and the various attribute boosting abilities are nice.

[Sinistra]

My previous character was a magician, a summoner actually (Invoking Metamagic and all). Before that I have played a Rigger. What I said probably came out wrong, I do not know all the standard character creation rules, since my GMs do not use them. the Invoker was fun, though my GM started getting frustrated with the spirits I would Bind and Invoke. I have always just had a a hard time cramming a character into the BP creation rules, I really do prefer just straight karma all the way.

Basically I know the rules of the game, I just do not know standard character creation because things have always been house ruled. Also I would prefer to avoid Possession Tradition like the plague, the character builds I have done already drove my GM nuts.

[Mantis]

So do I. Is there a reason your GM wants to use the BP system? Not to derail your thread but I find karma build characters to be more rounded and you don't spend so much time trying to maximize the BP in the most efficient way. Karma is karma whether you spend it during creation or in game.

That said, mystic adepts, especially what you are trying to build, are hard to fit into the BP system. A melee capable character should have good physical stats with a focus (I think) on agility (to hit) and reaction (to avoid being hit), with an above average body to soak when you do get hit. Strength is important but not as much as there are plenty of other ways to get damage boosts for melee (weapons, crit strike, martial arts, hardliner gloves, etc). A mystic adept adds the problem of also needing good mental stats to help with the active spellcasting and such. You can mitigate this somewhat by choosing a tradition that uses Intuition as a drain stat and stay away from binding a lot of spirits so you don't need as much charisma. But you still need a good logic so you can keep enough foci active at once for the various booster spells you are going to want.
On top of that you need to split your magic between two aspects and that eats up the karma pretty quick. For a given amount of karma a pure adept or magician is generally better at his task than a mystic adept. I find the mystic adept is a good choice if there is already a magician and an adept in the team. Then you can play back up to either of those two with your powers. As a front line fighting type, they kinda suck, at least to start.

[Draco18s]

Couple of general comments:

1) You're a shifter. DO NOT prioritize your (meta)human form. You'll end up comparing the benefits of being human with being not-human and end up staying human, thus wasting 60 BP.
1a) Armor. Don't wear it.
2) Cyber. Limit it as much as you can, for various reasons, the primary one being that it won't work in animal form (see #1)
3) Magic. Whatever you can do with a spell and also with adept powers, take as a spell. It's not worth 3 PP to get Improved Reflexes if you can have it as a spell (yes, you'll be limited in Force, but good news: you have a pile of dice to make use of that force*).
4) Pick a martial art that fits the animal form, at least in flavor, if you can. Then it's one of those "fights that way because of animal upbringing" than being a mechanical advantage.

*I had the reverse issue (not enough dice) due to your table's rule on the magic split

[Sinistra]

Couple of general comments:

1) You're a shifter. DO NOT prioritize your (meta)human form. You'll end up comparing the benefits of being human with being not-human and end up staying human, thus wasting 60 BP.
1a) Armor. Don't wear it.
2) Cyber. Limit it as much as you can, for various reasons, the primary one being that it won't work in animal form (see #1)
3) Magic. Whatever you can do with a spell and also with adept powers, take as a spell. It's not worth 3 PP to get Improved Reflexes if you can have it as a spell (yes, you'll be limited in Force, but good news: you have a pile of dice to make use of that force*).
4) Pick a martial art that fits the animal form, at least in flavor, if you can. Then it's one of those "fights that way because of animal upbringing" than being a mechanical advantage.

*I had the reverse issue (not enough dice) due to your table's rule on the magic split

What are some of the Adept powers you would recommend?

[Freya]

The only ones that make sense for a fox shifter, IMO, are anything to do with melee combat and physical prowess (basically anything that's under Athlete's Way). Even then, there isn't a whole lot that you could do with adept powers that you couldn't do with spells (Increase Attribute, using Levitate instead of Great Leap, etc.)

[Sinistra]

The only ones that make sense for a fox shifter, IMO, are anything to do with melee combat and physical prowess (basically anything that's under Athlete's Way). Even then, there isn't a whole lot that you could do with adept powers that you couldn't do with spells (Increase Attribute, using Levitate instead of Great Leap, etc.)

Yeah, the only difference is Foci really and sustaining.

[Draco18s]

What are some of the Adept powers you would recommend?

Freya's aren't bad, but there's the other aspect of Fox as well. Cunning Trickster. Commanding Voice, Improved Attribute Charisma, Skill Whatever-its-called for Bluff. Etc.

[Freya]

Freya's aren't bad, but there's the other aspect of Fox as well. Cunning Trickster. Commanding Voice, Improved Attribute Charisma, Skill Whatever-its-called for Bluff. Etc.

Yeah, stuff like Kinesics, Commanding Voice, Improved Ability (Social skills, especially Con, and possibly Stealth skills) and/or Enthralling Performance. Sorry, I should've specified "within the confines of the character concept you indicated", since you'd already said you wanted her social skills to be fairly low. On the other hand, a fox is so used to watching body language and minute movements for hunting purposes that Kinesics might not be out of place. It makes a lot more sense to me that a shifter would be able to read someone's emotions by their posture than something like using a Mind Probe on them.

[Sinistra]

Yeah, stuff like Kinesics, Commanding Voice, Improved Ability (Social skills, especially Con, and possibly Stealth skills) and/or Enthralling Performance. Sorry, I should've specified "within the confines of the character concept you indicated", since you'd already said you wanted her social skills to be fairly low. On the other hand, a fox is so used to watching body language and minute movements for hunting purposes that Kinesics might not be out of place. It makes a lot more sense to me that a shifter would be able to read someone's emotions by their posture than something like using a Mind Probe on them.

It does make sense, and I may adjust the concept, I have no problem with them being good at Social, I just see it being a rough balance to be good at Spellcasting, Possibly unarmed combat(Or the elemental Aura spell is fairly useless), and then also being decent at social stuff. As I learned with my first Shadowrun character, being a generalist in a world of specialist gets you killed or you just tend to suck. I am dealing with a group where the average offensive dice roll is 14-15, I think are low is 12, and we have a high at about 17 dice. Without negative or positive modifiers from beyond the character.

[Freya]

I definitely know what you mean with having to keep a rough balance between all these different things; it seems like it's a case of "spells, unarmed combat, people skills: pick two". Unless your group is really desperate for combat monsters I'd hold off on the unarmed combat part for a while. From a roleplaying perspective, even though foxes are carnivores they're generally more playful and shy than aggressive, and they're fairly small physically compared to other predators so they're more likely to avoid a fight than charge into it. Mechanically, a Strength of 2 with Magic 3 on the "magician side" and the house rules you described will only get you a DV of 4P even with Elemental Aura. You'd also have to get up-close, resist (F/2) +3 Drain for the spell and either take a dice pool penalty or use one of your sustaining foci to keep the spell going. On top of that, with an Agility of 5 you'd need 6 points your relevant combat skills and either at least 0.5 PP worth of Improved Ability or a weapon focus to match even the low end of the group's offensive dice.

Honestly, you might be better off forgetting unarmed combat for the time being and just going with a combination shamanic mystic adept/face (might as well get the Drain resistance if you're focusing on Charisma anyway) to work the "playful trickster" aspect of a fox's personality. It would take changing your tradition and shifting points from Reaction and Intuition into Charisma, but on the bright side, adept powers for Social skills are a lot more point-efficient than for Combat skills. If you do end up having to fight, spells and spirits should hold you over until you can raise your Combat skills, especially if you use one of those sustaining foci for Combat Sense and take cover a lot.

If you end up absolutely needing an unarmed combat character instead, get six dice worth of Unarmed Combat, put a PP into two ranks of Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) and another PP into Killing Hands and two ranks of Critical Strike, then get two sustaining foci and cast Increase Agility and Combat Sense on yourself before combat. Touch-range combat spells like Death Touch, Shatter or Knockout on top of those (lower Drain than Elemental Aura and no dice pool penalty for sustaining them since they're instant), will end up with roughly 14 dice for your Unarmed Combat pool and a DV of maybe 6P per attack. The weapon focus probably isn't worth it at this point, since you'd have to spend a ton of BP/karma to have decent skills with it and you can't use it in fox form anyway, unless there's a section of the rules I've misread.

I'll do a little number-crunching to see what I come up with for a shamanic mystic adept/face build and post something in your other thread a separate post, apparently, since someone locked the other thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Freya]

As I mentioned, my adaptation of your character for a shamanic mystic adept/face. As written here, the build has 0 BP available.

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Fox Shifter (50 BP)

Attributes (200 BP):
BOD 2 (10 BP)
AGI 5 (30 BP)
REA 5 (30 BP)
STR 2 (10 BP)
CHA 5 (40 BP)
INT 4 (20 BP)
LOG 2 (10 BP)
WIL 5 (40 BP)

Special Attributes:
EDG 1 (0 BP)
MAG 5 (40 BP)

Active Skills (112 BP):

Athletics Skill Group 2 (20 BP; Climbing, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming)
Con 1 (4 BP)
Dodge 3 (12 BP)
Outdoors Skill Group 2 (20 BP; Navigation, Survival, Tracking)
Negotiation 1 (4 BP)
Sorcery Skill Group 4 (40 BP; Counterspelling, Ritual Spellcasting, Spellcasting)
Unarmed Combat 3 (12 BP)

Knowledge/Language Skills: (15/18 pts spent)

Knowledge Skills: Athabaskan Council Area Knowledge 3, Ecology 4, Environmental Law 3, Megacorporate Policies 2
Language Skills: Athabaskan N, English 3

Qualities:

Mystic Adept (Shamanic Tradition) (10 BP)
Aspected Magician: Sorcerer (+5 BP)
Prejudice: Specific, Outspoken (+10 BP)
Simsense Vertigo (+10 BP)
Wanted (Eco-Terrorist) (+10 BP)

Spells (18 BP, effective Magic 3):

Combat: Stunbolt
Detection: Combat Reflexes Sense
Health: Increase Agility, Heal
Manipulation: Alter Temperature, Levitate

Adept Powers (effective Magic 2):
Improved Ability (Con) 1 (0.25 PP)
Improved Ability (Negotiation) 1 (0.25 PP)
Kinesics 3 (1.5 PP)

Of course, this all depends on what you need for your campaign and what you're going to be able to spend in terms of that chunk of Karma and nuyen. I went into the build with the mindset of "she's a fox and a magician first and only started developing her people skills later", so I intentionally went light on the Social side skills-wise in favour of her magic. On the other hand, between Kinesics and the two Improved Ability powers she'll get +4 dice to Con and Negotiation and +3 dice to any other "reading body language" skill. The spells I picked were based on the ones I mentioned in the other thread, but since I was already running out of BP I decided to leave off a few I would otherwise have added (namely some combination of more combat spells, more Increase Attribute, and maybe Improved Invisibility/Silence for ninja-ing purposes). The leftover three points in Knowledge skills are because I couldn't think of anything else to put them into that fit, and depending on where your campaign is set, it might've made sense to have another language in addition to English and Athabaskan.

Feel free to use as much or as little of those stats as you want, I hope it helps.

[Sinistra]

As I mentioned, my adaptation of your character for a shamanic mystic adept/face. As written here, the build has 0 BP available.

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Fox Shifter (50 BP)

Attributes (200 BP):
BOD 2 (10 BP)
AGI 5 (30 BP)
REA 5 (30 BP)
STR 2 (10 BP)
CHA 5 (40 BP)
INT 4 (20 BP)
LOG 2 (10 BP)
WIL 5 (40 BP)

Special Attributes:
EDG 1 (0 BP)
MAG 5 (40 BP)

Active Skills (112 BP):

Athletics Skill Group 2 (20 BP; Climbing, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming)
Con 1 (4 BP)
Dodge 3 (12 BP)
Outdoors Skill Group 2 (20 BP; Navigation, Survival, Tracking)
Negotiation 1 (4 BP)
Sorcery Skill Group 4 (40 BP; Counterspelling, Ritual Spellcasting, Spellcasting)
Unarmed Combat 3 (12 BP)

Knowledge/Language Skills: (15/18 pts spent)

Knowledge Skills: Athabaskan Council Area Knowledge 3, Ecology 4, Environmental Law 3, Megacorporate Policies 2
Language Skills: Athabaskan N, English 3

Qualities:

Mystic Adept (Shamanic Tradition) (10 BP)
Aspected Magician: Sorcerer (+5 BP)
Prejudice: Specific, Outspoken (+10 BP)
Simsense Vertigo (+10 BP)
Wanted (Eco-Terrorist) (+10 BP)

Spells (18 BP, effective Magic 3):

Combat: Stunbolt
Detection: Combat Reflexes
Health: Increase Agility, Heal
Manipulation: Alter Temperature, Levitate

Adept Powers (effective Magic 2):
Improved Ability (Con) 1 (0.25 PP)
Improved Ability (Negotiation) 1 (0.25 PP)
Kinesics 3 (1.5 PP)

Of course, this all depends on what you need for your campaign and what you're going to be able to spend in terms of that chunk of Karma and nuyen. I went into the build with the mindset of "she's a fox and a magician first and only started developing her people skills later", so I intentionally went light on the Social side skills-wise in favour of her magic. On the other hand, between Kinesics and the two Improved Ability powers she'll get +4 dice to Con and Negotiation and +3 dice to any other "reading body language" skill. The spells I picked were based on the ones I mentioned in the other thread, but since I was already running out of BP I decided to leave off a few I would otherwise have added (namely some combination of more combat spells, more Increase Attribute, and maybe Improved Invisibility/Silence for ninja-ing purposes). The leftover three points in Knowledge skills are because I couldn't think of anything else to put them into that fit, and depending on where your campaign is set, it might've made sense to have another language in addition to English and Athabaskan.

Feel free to use as much or as little of those stats as you want, I hope it helps.

Not to sound stupid, but is Combat Reflexes supposed to be Increased Reflexes the health spell which gives more passes, or Combat Sense the detection spell?

[Freya]

Not to sound stupid, but is Combat Reflexes supposed to be Increased Reflexes the health spell which gives more passes, or Combat Sense the detection spell?

That's not you sounding stupid, that's allllllll me. It's supposed to be Combat Sense. (I was reading the adept powers while I wrote that and got my wires crossed, I'll change it.)

[Sinistra]

That's not you sounding stupid, that's allllllll me. It's supposed to be Combat Sense. (I was reading the adept powers while I wrote that and got my wires crossed, I'll change it.)

We all have those days. Trust me, I spend a fair bit of time going over what I typed because I am dyslexic. Even then I still screw up because my brain messes with me when I do my rechecks.

So in combat, only one pass huh? Would you recommend the spell and a Foci to remedy that wit the Extra Karma and Nuyen I will have. I do not know the exact values, but if I base it of what my last character had before he died...156 Karma, 281K Nuyen.

[Freya]

So in combat, only one pass huh? Would you recommend the spell and a Foci to remedy that wit the Extra Karma and Nuyen I will have. I do not know the exact values, but if I base it of what my last character had before he died...156 Karma, 281K Nuyen.

Yes, I think the easiest way to get around only having the one combat pass is just using and sustaining Increase Reflexes. You'd have to overcast it to Force 4 to get the maximum benefit from it, but even if you left it at Force 3 you could still get 3 IP total and use one of your sustaining foci for it. Now that you mention it, Increase Reflexes might make more sense than Increase Agility, since you're using Reaction/Combat Sense for defence anyway and Agility doesn't apply to offensive spellcasting. (I assume you'd be handling combat by tossing spells around and GTFOing if something attacks you.)

[Sinistra]

Yes, I think the easiest way to get around only having the one combat pass is just using and sustaining Increase Reflexes. You'd have to overcast it to Force 4 to get the maximum benefit from it, but even if you left it at Force 3 you could still get 3 IP total and use one of your sustaining foci for it. Now that you mention it, Increase Reflexes might make more sense than Increase Agility, since you're using Reaction/Combat Sense for defence anyway and Agility doesn't apply to offensive spellcasting. (I assume you'd be handling combat by tossing spells around and GTFOing if something attacks you.)

Yeah, that has become the idea at least. My agility will be used if I am trying to be more combat subtle and shooting/tasing people (I really have a thing for the Taser weapons, they are hilarious and great)

[Freya]

If you want to do it without having to split your dice pools into firearms for a taser, grab yourself a pair of shock gloves. (Why didn't I think of that earlier?) At a flat 5S DV and bypassing armour you'll do slightly more damage than you would with Elemental Aura, without having to deal with sustaining or Drain, and not electrocuting people that hit you isn't a big deal since when they shouldn't hit you anyway.

[Sinistra]

If you want to do it without having to split your dice pools into firearms for a taser, grab yourself a pair of shock gloves. (Why didn't I think of that earlier?) At a flat 5S DV and bypassing armour you'll do slightly more damage than you would with Elemental Aura, without having to deal with sustaining or Drain, and not electrocuting people that hit you isn't a big deal since when they shouldn't hit you anyway.

Yeah, makes sense. I am glad I came onto the forums because it turned an idea in my head that was not going to work into something that should work. While Elemental Aura is cool, I will save that for another concept another day. Maybe when I am just doing something a little more normal.

This is the part I love about Elemental Aura more than if people attack me in melee they take damage "This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attacks by the caster’s hits."

[Sinistra]

Freya, your build above acctually has 15 points left over, only 190 in Attributes, and I am not sure where the extra 5 BP went missing but I have quadruple checked at this point and I am sitting on 15 points, 190 in attributes.

[Freya]

Freya, your build above acctually has 15 points left over, only 190 in Attributes, and I am not sure where the extra 5 BP went missing but I have quadruple checked at this point and I am sitting on 15 points, 190 in attributes.

Oh, weird. I'm not sure where the other ones went either, but I wasn't checking the numbers all that closely when I threw it together, so it's entirely possible I didn't add correctly. I don't know what else I'd suggest for the character besides what I've already posted and "whatever's appropriate to your campaign", so go nuts!

Going to be AFK for a few hours, but I should be around later this evening.

[Sinistra]

Sounds good, I was just letting you know and I will do with them what I see fit. Look over the build, see if there is anything that may be useful and all that.