Shadowrun 5th Ed. Preview #2 Options

[MADness]

Thank you Aaron. That was right around the quantity of data. I mainly have issue with thing like the cost of Distance strike. Without the use of optional rules, the growth curve of adepts is prone to weakness in the early "game", even if they have the potential for game breakingness in the late game. But all of this has been repeatedly hashed out by the members of this board, and further discussion is unlikely to be different, so now I shut up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Garvel]

He may then add a laser sight to the gun, which bumps the Accuracy up to 7

I don't really like how that works. A laser sight should give an advantage to pros and amateurs as well. But if a lasersight only makes the limit higher, just people with really big dicepools will score better hits with a lasersight. Giving a +1 dicepool modifier seems to reflect reality far better than this.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I haven't been yelled at yet (although I haven't checked my inbox yet this morning), so I'll throw out there that we also took a good hard look at adepts and how they stacked against other character builds with similar concepts, and we made sure to close that gap in SR5.

Well we did get the blog about adept focuses which while cool still does not address the core issue of rebalancing power costs so cyber adept isn't the only adept. The mechanics should try to reinforce the setting that magic types want to avoid tech as muh as possible. If they want to change that setting piece that is fine, but so far they haven't. So things like muscle toner being .2 essence and cheap to boot while adept stat boosts are 1 PP are way out of whack especially given how insanely powerful stats are compared to skills. So hopefully they did rebalance powers a bit with things like that in mind. Also some powers probably oculd cost a bit more, though that list is smaller.

[Critias]

Adept powers, adept advancement, and some other magical stuff as it relates to adepts, were all looked at, long and hard. Trust me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ElFenrir]

From what I'm gathering, they're really, really trying to make as many concepts as viable as they can, rather than there being One True Thing. ''Want to be a Face? Better take Adept and start Pornomancing. Want to be an Adept? Better max magic so you can take the 1-2 point hit and get some cyber/bio while you're at it, and don't even think about Mystic Adept*." The more viable concepts the better, in my book.

Also, I think the Laser sight/Smartlink deal is trying to get out of 'throwing more and more dice modifiers onto things' by the look-and this would end up fitting pretty well especially if the skill cap is removed and Attribute/Skill numbers end up a little bigger at the end(even if it maybe sounds 'odd' on how it technically works.)




*To be fair, my Bear shifter is a Mystic Adept and he's quite fine...but we also play 750 Karma, x3 Attribute cost with slow Karma award advancement. In other words, we play a higher powered game and their fine, but jesus I could not make him work under 400 BP, and I'm a pretty awesome number cruncher...even if I don't always take the most optimal route.

[Aaron]

Also, I think the Laser sight/Smartlink deal is trying to get out of 'throwing more and more dice modifiers onto things' by the look-and this would end up fitting pretty well especially if the skill cap is removed and Attribute/Skill numbers end up a little bigger at the end(even if it maybe sounds 'odd' on how it technically works.)

That is a fairly good assessment. You can still throw dice mods onto things, but there's more of a cost or risk associated with it--no freebies.

[Draco18s]

Also, as laser sights tend to increase accuracy, having it effect the Accuracy stat is a good call.

[Bigity]

Hm, depends. It does not make the weapon any more accurate. It makes it easier to take advantage of the accuracy already there, I'd say.

Whether the system models those situations differently, I dunno.

[Kiirnodel]

The way I see it, the laser sight makes a gun more accurate, but doesn't make the person wielding it any more skilled or coordinated.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The way I see it, the laser sight makes a gun more accurate, but doesn't make the person wielding it any more skilled or coordinated.

So other than the label accuracy on the stat what does raising its accuracy stat do in most cases assuming a accuracy of 4 lets say. Does that seem like it actually made the device more accurate? It may end up working mechanically on a fantastic level, but that doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense in how it works.

[Sengir]

The way I see it, the laser sight makes a gun more accurate, but doesn't make the person wielding it any more skilled or coordinated.

Big fallacy: Going by the arbitrarily chosen name of the mechanic rather than the intended effect. Just going by the name, EVERYTHING would increase Accuracy.

And I still hope the base Acc is not 4, despite the preview and demos, as it would turn fights against mooks into this. Then again, with all the instand "wave my hand and pwn your gun" stuff, that might be the plan...

[ravensmuse]

A couple of quick thoughts...

I'm interested in Limits but I'm down about dice pools still being huge. I think we've got way too many dice in play at the table; ten or twelve dice for a single attempt just seems excessive. Was it ever in the cards to make the pools smaller and yet mean more?

I'm also not excited for more GearRun. Buying gear was already one of the most laborious parts of the game, and now it's going to matter even more what gun we buy, what ammunition we buy, whether or not it's in clips, if it's explosive...I mean, I understand that people absolutely love picking every single loving detail about their gun, but the game should be about the Sixth World, not what cool gun you've got clipped to your belt.

On that note, thousands more gear options? Yay? Again, it just seems like it's a little excessive.

Finally, is there any chance we could get a preview link that isn't Battleshop or DriveThru, where I have to make a sign in and all that other noise?

I realize that I'm being excessively whiny here, but it definitely seems like Shadowrun and me are going in completely different directions (rules lighter, less detail, more narrative based...)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*To be fair, my Bear shifter is a Mystic Adept and he's quite fine...but we also play 750 Karma, x3 Attribute cost with slow Karma award advancement. In other words, we play a higher powered game and their fine, but jesus I could not make him work under 400 BP, and I'm a pretty awesome number cruncher...even if I don't always take the most optimal route.

To be fair, the Human Mystic Adept I play works just fine, and we play a 750 Karma (400 BP), x5 Attribute Cost, Below average-Average Karma Reward game. It is all in your concept, really. Optimization may help, but if the concept sucks, optimization will rarely salvage it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The way I see it, the laser sight makes a gun more accurate, but doesn't make the person wielding it any more skilled or coordinated.

A gun does not become more accurate due to a laser sight being added. Mechanically, the gun has not changed at all. What happens is that the shooter potentially becomes more accurate. Laser sights are there for people, not for the gun itself.

[Seerow]

I realize that I'm being excessively whiny here, but it definitely seems like Shadowrun and me are going in completely different directions (rules lighter, less detail, more narrative based...)

Shadowrun has never really been any of these things, so I'm not sure why you would expect 5e to suddenly start heading that direction....

[sk8bcn]

A couple of quick thoughts...

I'm interested in Limits but I'm down about dice pools still being huge. I think we've got way too many dice in play at the table; ten or twelve dice for a single attempt just seems excessive. Was it ever in the cards to make the pools smaller and yet mean more?

The only way I'd see to lower the number of dices rolled without:
1- shaking the "count successes" concept.
2-keep room of improvement for character

would be to roll skill vs TN depending on your attribute. That would be an complete modification of the game system.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A couple of quick thoughts...

I'm interested in Limits but I'm down about dice pools still being huge. I think we've got way too many dice in play at the table; ten or twelve dice for a single attempt just seems excessive. Was it ever in the cards to make the pools smaller and yet mean more?

I have never seen 10-12 Dice as excessive (I have had 3rd Edition Characters (and I am pretty sure 2nd Edition characters as well) rolling 18 Dice, before combat pools, to make attacks). Around 20 Dice is generally my upper limit on anything, with Primary Skill DP's around the 10-14 DP range (I try to start my Primary DP's from 8-12). The problem is escalation. The rules allow one to start at the top of their game, with upwards of 20+ DP (and sometimes up to even double that), if so desired, right out of the gate (assuming you enjoy hyper-specialized/optimized characters, and I know that some actualoly do); and then all I tend to hear is that there is no room for improvement in their primary skill DP's; or that the GM is out to get them when they are challenged in their Primary skill area, or that it is boring because they ROFLSTOMP the opposition all the time. It gets tiresome.

Limits already exist, if the table is willing to use them. They are often referred to as restraint. Just because you are ALLOWED to do something in character creation, it does not mean that you HAVE to do that thing.

Sorry. Yes I know, I am on the soapbox again. I apologize.

[BishopMcQ]

Sk8bcn -- That could start working with a variable target number like we had pre-SR4. Instead of a base TN 4, do something like (8-Attrib), with 6s always exploding. By not adding your Attribute to the pool, but it changing all of your linked TNs, my gut says it should be equally relevant. (Not suddenly more or less important) That would lead us back to all of the Dice Pool modifiers being TN modifiers.

Hmmm, I wonder how the probability curves would look.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sk8bcn -- That could start working with a variable target number like we had pre-SR4. Instead of a base TN 4, do something like (8-Attrib), with 6s always exploding. By not adding your Attribute to the pool, but it changing all of your linked TNs, my gut says it should be equally relevant. (Not suddenly more or less important) That would lead us back to all of the Dice Pool modifiers being TN modifiers.

Hmmm, I wonder how the probability curves would look.

Please no... Absolutely HATED variable TN's...

Besides, 8-Attribute (TN) woiuld really suck (yes, I know, quick and dirty estimate, though it works with the average Human with 3's in his attributes, giving a TN5), when all your Street Sam get successes on all their dice becasue they have 9's in their relevant attributes. It is a scaling nightmare....

[Aaron]

[WARNING: Nerdy math stuff ahead]

Variable TNs were cool, at least I thought so when I started playing Shadowrun. On the surface, they're pretty intuitive: more dice is good, lower TN is good. But in practice, the actual results over time are not intuitive. The probability curves start high with low TNs and then slope downward, plateau, then slope down less, plateau, lather, rinse, repeat. It doesn't always match up with reality, which tends to have a more bell-shaped curve when events pile up over time.

The constant TN with variable numbers of dice make a probability curve that is more normal.¹ Most of the results are around the expected value, with some outliers happening every now and again, which makes the game still random, but a bit more predictable. With a TN of 5, the curve is skewed to the right, which means that when there's an exception you're more likely to have a result that's higher than the expected, which is a Good Thing for games, I think.

¹This pun goes out to my stats peeps out there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

[WARNING: Nerdy math stuff ahead]

Variable TNs were cool, at least I thought so when I started playing Shadowrun. On the surface, they're pretty intuitive: more dice is good, lower TN is good. But in practice, the actual results over time are not intuitive. The probability curves start high with low TNs and then slope downward, plateau, then slope down less, plateau, lather, rinse, repeat. It doesn't always match up with reality, which tends to have a more bell-shaped curve when events pile up over time.

The constant TN with variable numbers of dice make a probability curve that is more normal.¹ Most of the results are around the expected value, with some outliers happening every now and again, which makes the game still random, but a bit more predictable. With a TN of 5, the curve is skewed to the right, which means that when there's an exception you're more likely to have a result that's higher than the expected, which is a Good Thing for games, I think.

¹This pun goes out to my stats peeps out there.

No worries, Aaron, Nerds gotta have fun too...
I just grew to absolutely loathe variable TN's by the end of SR3.

[Stahlseele]

Why should you never tell a statistician that he's Average?
Because it's mean.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why should you never tell a statistician that he's Average?
Because it's mean.

*Shakes Head*
That was....... Just Horrible.

[BishopMcQ]

Tymaeus -- Personally, I like the Fixed TN system. There are just times when I feel like playing with the math to see how it all looks. My first few sessions of SR back in 94, I just listened as everyone else calculated my TN for me. Always rolling for 5/6 is substantially easier to explain to folks than "start at 4, -2 for smartlink, -1 for aiming, +6 for full auto, +4 for Ruthenium, -5 for Recoil Comp..."

[Aaron]

Why should you never tell a statistician that he's Average?
Because it's mean.

*Shakes Head*
That was....... Just Horrible.

If by Horrible you mean Awesome.