Shadowrun 5th Ed. Preview #2 Options

[Draco18s]

I think I see where you are going with this . . . Easily solved by dedicating the skill portion of the dice to a different colour, and only glitching if those dice come up 1s.

Just to let you know:

People hate that. It requires going out and buying separately colored dice.

[Black Swan]

Just to let you know:

People hate that. It requires going out and buying separately colored dice.

You mean, you hate it. I don't know a single person who plays Shadowrun and owns only one colour of dice.

.........Left overs from the old days with combat pool.

[RHat]

I think I see where you are going with this . . . Easily solved by dedicating the skill portion of the dice to a different colour, and only glitching if those dice come up 1s.

That's actually not a bad fix - of course, it gets into the issue that it discourages people from broadening out with a number of lower ranked skills.

And I don't know about anyone else here, but I've got quite a few colours of dice. There's also the alternative of rolling the skill dice separately, if for some reason you don't have a variety.

[Draco18s]

You mean, you hate it. I don't know a single person who plays Shadowrun and owns only one colour of dice.

No, I mean, I've heard such things in the past on this board.
As it so happens, my group used to buy dice by the pound, so it was tricky to get a collection of dice that matched even more than two dice the same color (much less everyone around the table). Our GM eventually went out and bought 40 black dice to use as "Shadowrun Dice" (and then I dutifully colored in the 2/3/4 pips with a sharpie I owned). Could we do that again? Sure, but it'd be annoying.

[RHat]

I'm sure you've got more than enough "bluish" dice, or similar, to use for that.

[Draco18s]

I'm sure you've got more than enough "bluish" dice, or similar, to use for that.

Well, actually, not any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
GM moved out of state, someone else now owns the original 1 pound of dice, etc. etc.
Also, haven't played SR in like four years.

[thorya]

Yah 1 in 5 sounds like a lot to me, like a lot of pisssed off players as their good roles get taken away far more often than edge can deal with.

Are there really many times that the extra hits actually matter outside of combat?

As a frequent GM, I think it will be nice to just go "You succeed" rather than players expecting that they super extra succeed on 'tying their shoe' (insert mundane binary success task here) because they rolled 8 successes out of 10 or 15 successes out of 24 with their world class shoe tying expert.

And it may be one more thing to think about, but it's no worse than remembering all the modifiers for recoil rules.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I ink 1 in 5 is way too high. I also think that a 3 limit is way low.

Well unless C, D, and E in attributes gets you past the dump stat stage so you can easily have a 4+ limit in all the stat based limits I suspect it will pop up quite a bit. Maybe the number they pulled was totally random in the example we have but if a 6 limit is based off of high stats what is your limit when you only could put C, D, or E into stats? 3 does not seem that far fetched to me if a 6 is actually based on good stats. But hey bump it by 1 to a 4 limit and its a very hard test, or the guy sneaking for 5 hits which he can probably do off a pool of 8 or 9 and if his limit is 5 or he used edge, you are kind of boned. And if NPCs have limits do I really want them to auto fail against a decent stealth roll.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Are there really many times that the extra hits actually matter outside of combat?

As a frequent GM, I think it will be nice to just go "You succeed" rather than players expecting that they super extra succeed on 'tying their shoe' (insert mundane binary success task here) because they rolled 8 successes out of 10 or 15 successes out of 24 with their world class shoe tying expert.

And it may be one more thing to think about, but it's no worse than remembering all the modifiers for recoil rules.

Negotiation, etiquette for legwork, stealth(you never know what you will need) perception usually has bonuses for high success etc. Sure sometimes they just need to jump the gap, but plently of other times the level of success maters.

[thorya]

Negotiation, etiquette for legwork, stealth(you never know what you will need) perception usually has bonuses for high success etc. Sure sometimes they just need to jump the gap, but plently of other times the level of success maters.

I'm inclined to disagree, but a lot of how much extra success matter probably depends on your table.

Opposed tests the hits matter, but it's still a binary success/failure most of the time and I expect that the runners will have limits on the same level or better than most opposition in their specialty or even secondary specialty so it's not a huge detriment there.

Extended tests the hits matter, but the limit just means that there is a lower limit on the time a task takes. Not detrimental and not something many players are likely to get too bent out of shape on.

Social tests are so subjective and GM based that the limits will likely have exactly as much impact as the GM wants them to. Sure Pornomancers will suffer, but is anyone really all that concerned with keeping them viable?

If implemented correctly, I really think the place that's going to see the hardest hit from limits are people trying to do things without the proper equipment or people that depended entirely on stacking dice pool bonuses. i.e. someone trying to hack a AAA database with a stuffer shack special cyberdeck, someone trying to snipe with a pistol at 200 meters because lol dice pool of 24, someone trying to infiltrate a corporate facility while wearing a bright red neon shirt because lol I've got good agility, someone in a gun fight that has a 1 in firearms, with 1 agi, +2 smartlink, and +4 tac net, the guy with agi 1 rutheium coated camo suit, the character with a moderate charisma score and social skills and a toy furbie and pheromones convincing an NPC that they are in fact just a tree stump that believes it's alive etc.

Yeah, they're not super common examples, but they do exist and I'm fine with those sorts of silliness being actually blocked in the rules rather than having to veto them myself.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm inclined to disagree, but a lot of how much extra success matter probably depends on your table.

Opposed tests the hits matter, but it's still a binary success/failure most of the time and I expect that the runners will have limits on the same level or better than most opposition in their specialty or even secondary specialty so it's not a huge detriment there.

Extended tests the hits matter, but the limit just means that there is a lower limit on the time a task takes. Not detrimental and not something many players are likely to get too bent out of shape on.

Social tests are so subjective and GM based that the limits will likely have exactly as much impact as the GM wants them to. Sure Pornomancers will suffer, but is anyone really all that concerned with keeping them viable?

If implemented correctly, I really think the place that's going to see the hardest hit from limits are people trying to do things without the proper equipment or people that depended entirely on stacking dice pool bonuses. i.e. someone trying to hack a AAA database with a stuffer shack special cyberdeck, someone trying to snipe with a pistol at 200 meters because lol dice pool of 24, someone trying to infiltrate a corporate facility while wearing a bright red neon shirt because lol I've got good agility, someone in a gun fight that has a 1 in firearms, with 1 agi, +2 smartlink, and +4 tac net, the guy with agi 1 rutheium coated camo suit, the character with a moderate charisma score and social skills and a toy furbie and pheromones convincing an NPC that they are in fact just a tree stump that believes it's alive etc.

Yeah, they're not super common examples, but they do exist and I'm fine with those sorts of silliness being actually blocked in the rules rather than having to veto them myself.

See the thing is I'm not that worried about how well the stealth expert can sneak, I expect his limit will be high. I'm worried about everyone else trying to sneak. Limits seem to have the potnetial to tell people not to even try in the first place because no matter how good you roll it wont be good enough since your hits will be capped. I'm not sure about your table but everyone at my table talks to NPcs, everyone tries to sneak past guards and everyone wants to spot the guy sneaking up on them. Sure it is a game of specialists but that does not mean you never do things outside of your specialty. Personally I think one of the worst things a game can do is tell people not to even try.

[thorya]

See the thing is I'm not that worried about how well the stealth expert can sneak, I expect his limit will be high. I'm worried about everyone else trying to sneak. Limits seem to have the potnetial to tell people not to even try in the first place because no matter how good you roll it wont be good enough since your hits will be capped. I'm not sure about your table but everyone at my table talks to NPcs, everyone tries to sneak past guards and everyone wants to spot the guy sneaking up on them. Sure it is a game of specialists but that does not mean you never do things outside of your specialty. Personally I think one of the worst things a game can do is tell people not to even try.

Yeah, everyone talks to NPCs, but we usually roleplay that and only the face negotiates the price for a job or for most of the equipment. We don't use the etiquette shifts someone one step per hit in your favor. Blending in helps, but no one that planned on shooting you instantly becomes your friend just because you look like you probably have been on the streets before.
Only the infiltration players try to sneak past the guards, the face usually walks in the front door right by them in plane view if he needs to and the hacker stays in the van. But every tables different, I know a lot of groups drag everyone along for everything so yeah maybe limits will hurt that style of play.
Everyone wants to spot the guy sneaking up on them, but we usually do this with precautions, not perception. And intuition is not a commonly dumped stat at our table, so I don't think the limits are going to be an issue. And even so, they either spot the guy or they don't. Maybe they get a few extra details for a higher perception roll, but beating him by 6 dice doesn't help a whole lot.

And it's not like the don't even try situation doesn't exist already. The large negative dice pool modifiers already do this. (Concealment power, with chameleon suit, injured, -2 hit by a taser, -2 disorientation, lighting penalties, you can usually cripple most characters just through dice pool modifiers). At least with a limit on an opposed roll, you still have a chance rather than having your pool reduced to zero and not having any.

[Draco18s]

Well unless C, D, and E in attributes gets you past the dump stat stage so you can easily have a 4+ limit in all the stat based limits I suspect it will pop up quite a bit. Maybe the number they pulled was totally random in the example we have but if a 6 limit is based off of high stats what is your limit when you only could put C, D, or E into stats? 3 does not seem that far fetched to me if a 6 is actually based on good stats. But hey bump it by 1 to a 4 limit and its a very hard test, or the guy sneaking for 5 hits which he can probably do off a pool of 8 or 9 and if his limit is 5 or he used edge, you are kind of boned. And if NPCs have limits do I really want them to auto fail against a decent stealth roll.

Gear also comes into play. Limits are the higher of [Attribute Limit] or [Gear Limit], not the lower.

[Cain]

Gear also comes into play. Limits are the higher of [Attribute Limit] or [Gear Limit], not the lower.

That's... really not very reassuring.

My goal is a simpler. faster game. Having a new mechanic to deal with is bad enough, but having to look it up every time somebody picks up a new piece of gear does not sound appealing.

[binarywraith]

Yeah, that seems like Yet Another Number to track on the already oversized gear stat blocks that everything requires.

[CeeJay]

Hit limits are not to prevent success in cases of astronomical odds, they prevent overwhelming success when success is almost assured.

Well, there's something else to consider here. I bet there will be drugs, toxins or spells that will actually lower a person's hit limits. Illusion spells like Confusion or Chaotic World could now work in such a way. And when a hit limit reaches zero you can't succeed at a test. In SR4 it was virtually impossible to reduce even a moderate dicepool of 6 or 7 to zero this way, but now hit limits will be much lower than that (probably around 4). So debuffing opponents may become a feasible tactic...

-CJ

[RHat]

If a Sam were to ahve a Physical limit of, say, 10, I can't say I see that situation coming up all that much either.

The same thing the "ohnoes, Limits are 4!" thing came out of had exactly that example.

[Tycho]

The Sammy in the Quickstart Rules has Limits

A Limit of 4 is more or less the low end.
A Limit of 7-8 is more or less the high end.

Ares Predetor has Accuracy 5(7) (means Limit 5 normal; Limit 7 with Smartlink)

Street Sam Limits: Physical 8, Mental 5, Social 4
Street-Shaman Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 7
Hacker Limits: Physical 5, Mental 6(7), Social 5
Adept: Limits: Physical 6, Mental 5, Social 5

[RHat]

And if those are anything like the SR4 sample characters, the ACTUAL high end will be a good deal higher. Combine that with Limit penalties presumably being smaller than dice penalties, and I don't see diminishing a limit to zero being much of a plan.

[Tycho]

your are probably right.

guessing from the samble chars: The Limits seem to be calculatet by this formula... but it is just my interpolation of the given data

Physical Limit: (Bod+Str+Agi)/2
Mental Limit: (Int+Log+Wil)/2

[Cain]

If a Sam were to ahve a Physical limit of, say, 10, I can't say I see that situation coming up all that much either.

The same thing the "ohnoes, Limits are 4!" thing came out of had exactly that example.

If limits are that high, they're not going to be effective in stopping dice pool inflation. If they're too small, they're going to constantly annoy people as they can't get enough successes to do anything.

I'm sincerely hoping that they playtested enough to find a good middle ground, but I'm going to play it and see how it works.

[sk8bcn]

I find the limit concept nice at least. And I expect it to be taken as a good thing in the long run. It grants an extra-tactical playtoy (do I know break the limit with edge), and adds something to de-min-maxing. If dices are added, everyone should min-max equipement, even the unskilled guy (as long as he has money for it). Now only specialists have to, which, IMO, sounds good ("yeah, I'm a gun master and I've mounted this and that on my xxx gun better at md range than yyy" "Woa me? I'didn't do nothing. Just have my predator. I'm a decker after all").

It's an old gimmick of the cyberpunk genre, yes, but it was never nicely implemented. If implemented at all.

To me, it's just ... old.
It was implemented in the Essence mechanic, and the in-character effect left for the players to roleplay. The dehumanizing effect of cyber is mentioned numerous times throughout the books, including, say, the perfect Hatchetman's account.

Well, CGL doesn't have the license for Post-Cyberpunk Transmetropolitan so... Old Skool Cyberpunk it is!

@Fatum: I think I was unclear about that "If implemented at all" sentence. Essence loss isn't a deshumanizing effect (crunchwise, not fluffwise). It's a mechanic that lowers your magic and lowers your interraction with magic. And up to a point you die. There were notes about deshumanizing BUT honestly, even into fluff books, not every samourai is a heartless robot. Nor does a table or pages explain in rulebooks how to roleplay that loss of soul. Nor does a fluff book explain how it's perceived to lose your soul. Ok a street sam may be badly perceived, because he's dangerous.

That's why I say it has never been implemented. And if it is in 5th, it would be nice to have the logic be explored completely and get guidelines about how personnality and cyberware loss inetracts.


@Canray: Why would have cyberpunk to make and immediate jump to transhumanism? Deus Ex 2 ditched the soulless desuhamanizing cyberpunk gimmick. Because, I think, we are more confortable with the idea than in the 80s.
You can polish and update your cyberpunk. It's not really cyberpunk anymore, but I don't think that many want cyberpunk to be that 80's cyberpunk it once was. I've read an interview of Mike Pondsmith. He want to do that for Cyberpunk 4. I expect a flop.

Oh, on a side note, I think SR evolves in the right way.

[CeeJay]

And if those are anything like the SR4 sample characters, the ACTUAL high end will be a good deal higher. Combine that with Limit penalties presumably being smaller than dice penalties, and I don't see diminishing a limit to zero being much of a plan.

Maybe you're right. We'll have to wait and see... but if limits are that high, their effect won't come up very often in the game... then I wonder why they did all the work to implement a new mechanic in the game that will presumably be applied to every roll and that's going to be irrelevant 95% of the time...

I'm sincerely hoping that they playtested enough to find a good middle ground, but I'm going to play it and see how it works.

Yepp, me too...

-CJ

[RHat]

Maybe you're right. We'll have to wait and see... but if limits are that high, their effect won't come up very often in the game... then I wonder why they did all the work to implement a new mechanic in the game that will presumably be applied to every roll and that's going to be irrelevant 95% of the time...

To be fair, just because you CAN get a limit that high doesn't mean it's a good plan - you have to balance primary limits against primary dice pools against secondary limits against secondary dice pools...

[hermit]

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