Shadowrun 5th Ed. Preview #2 Options

[Stahlseele]

We've all played shit disturber characters before. From my experience it ends up ruining it for everyone.

they all groan about it, when they see what i did there for a bit, the GM gets a bit miffed that i managed, again, to smuggle something by him even though i have more restrictive build rules than everybody else . .
and then they shut up about it when i manage to save the day using it somehow ^^

[Aaron]

When is the actual release date, anyway?

To steal a trademark from another game, SOON^TM.

[KarmaInferno]

none of them thought i could make the SR3 Skillwires into a useable, much less broken design . .

I did a skillwires/personafix character once.

The base character was barely cognizent, a child in an adult body. Maxed out stats, some cyberware, little else.efore a run, his team would slot one of several personality chips and a battery of skill and knowsofts. The primary personality just knew it was time to sleep.

Wasn't the most powerful character I've played, but I got to be a different persona every run. Sometime several times in a run.

And disturbing the heck out of your fellow players is priceless. Ahh, the falsetto tones of the Auntie Agony persona coming from a hulking man child's body...

...maybe I should recreate the character for SR Missions: Chicago! Hey, Bull! Are you going to Origins? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

[Shinobi Killfist]

Your character is supposed to be competent. Part of competence is picking the best tools for your job. So picking the best is roleplaying. Best will vary based on certain limitations, availability, cost, etc.

Eh I hate this rational. I have no problem with the idea you can min/max and roleplay, but trying to pretend min/maxing is part of the roleplay is bunk. Best tool for the job is the one you think your character would prefer, sure there are limits where a piece of gear is horrible but all in all i sispect most SMGs will be in the same ball park. One might be mechanically the best but its not like that is a known fact in game. You could take whatever gun you prefer, is is mechanically in the same ball park come up with a reason why you prefer said gun like you had bad experiences with the ingram it jammed on you one to many times, but your HK is reliable. Is the ingram slightly better maybe but that isn’t some universal known in the game world, professionals always argue about gear. That is roleplaying as well, even if the geat is not the best. And I've never seen anyone who tried this excuse take mechanically crappy gear on purpose outside of their specialty since they don't know what is the best X. Min/maxing just has nothing to do one way or the other with roleplaying. It is an out of game activity for the most part. Basically IMO saying min/maxing is part of the roleplaying is no better than saying you can't min/max and roleplay. If you wanted to limit it to how you roleplay I'd have no issue, but you make it sound like a universal concept.

[RHat]

Take a look at the shadowtalk in, say, Gun Heaven. The mechanical flaws that weapons have are considered to be flaws in-setting as well. In general, a character isn't going to think that the actually worse weapon is the better one. There's a reason why I tend to like the Government 2066, though - Electronic Firing is a great feature to have stock, and I like to look at it as the M1911 of the 2070's.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Take a look at the shadowtalk in, say, Gun Heaven. The mechanical flaws that weapons have are considered to be flaws in-setting as well. In general, a character isn't going to think that the actually worse weapon is the better one. There's a reason why I tend to like the Government 2066, though - Electronic Firing is a great feature to have stock, and I like to look at it as the M1911 of the 2070's.

I don't have gun haven on hand but blackl book 2074 is more filled with comments like "I found it too hard to control. The thing would hit me in the face if I wasn't careful" That isn't something in the mechanics at all. The browning mega powers shadowtalk was about the tracking software built into it not the gun itself. I don't see anything even remotely implying their is one true gun or much in the way of comparing its 32 shot mag to Xs 26 shot mag while one comes with 2 points of recoil and the other 3. Virtually all the guns have there hits and misses, though on a pure game mechanic level there might be a best gun it isn't in the fluff like that.

[RHat]

One true gun? No. But let's not pretend the mechanical elements don't have an in-setting identity.

[Shinobi Killfist]

One true gun? No. But let's not pretend the mechanical elements don't have an in-setting identity.

To some degree they do. Peop;le know this one has gas vent 2, bf/fa settings, an internal smartlink, a folding stock and a 32 shot mag. But how it handles, its reliability, its accuracy at X range all of that are things professionals would debate and its those intangibles thst are not mechanically present that would be one of the largest determiners in what gear a person would pick up. Most of the gear categories where there are choices there are choices that are relatively balanced mechanically and in setting there would not be a solid decision on what is better for a lot of them. Professionals would like most of the guns and armor for various reasons, just like in the real world pros will argue about brands, makes models etc. You might be able to min/max figure out what is better for your build wired 2 or synaptic accelerator 2, and some of that is in game nuyen vs essence but your player pro or not probably is not planning things out from the BP perspective. He got what was issued in special forces or by Ares, He saved up X money here, and Y money there, but never had 250,000 to drop in one big master plan of gear buying etc. There are objectively bad decisions like not taking a stealth program as a hacker, or not having programs higher than rating 3 which a pro would not do unless your backstory involved him being broke or something. But overall min/maxing or the lack thereof was not part of the roleplaying. For the occasional person who roleplays a very narrow idea of professionalism sure, but in ost cases it just has nothing to do with roleplaying

[RHat]

Yeah, but things like recoil compensation don't come from nowhere - people know about the compensators a weapon has, for example, as well as its other accessories. The information available to the player is not unavailable to the character.

[LurkerOutThere]

It was implemented in the Essence mechanic, and the in-character effect left for the players to roleplay. The dehumanizing effect of cyber is mentioned numerous times throughout the books, including, say, the perfect Hatchetman's account.

I've been wanting to come back to this for a few days now. Lets be clear about this essence always has been, and always will be, a game mechanic. It's a game mechanic with window dressing nothing more nothing less. Until the advent of Man and Machine (IIRC, it's been a long day) and the often cited Hatchetman's account the subject was barely touched on, suddenly you have Hatchetman's account, an account written by a man on death's door as a post life recollection is now held up as the poster child for how to see ware. It was great reading but citing it (as it often is cited) like it's the gold standard for street sam's is like saying that all combat veterans across all media must be portrayed as if they are one loud noise away from a PTSD induced flashback. It's trope, and it's not even particularly good trope.

Basically I refuse to believe that SR spent so much time challenging the status quo about people's perception of magic, dragons, orks, trolls, elves etc that on this one item it's so important that people realize that their trading their soul for power (seriously that's what we're going with?) that it's actually now getting put in as a universal game mechanic, no matter how large or small the penalty. I refuse to believe that a game world rich enough to support the Church of Elvis on one side and Christian Theurge's on the other, auto-mechanic street wise elven go gangers and Frank Sinatra singing troll musicians (although to me that one was kind of weird) wants to pick this item as it's one universal constant.

Now i'm going to field some arguments ahead of time while hopefully avoiding strawman fallacy.

1) You can houserule it away: Yea but i shouldn't have to. It fails a basic test of does this rule make the game/world better. Various syndromes of dissociation from cyberware or other sources could just as easily be handled by edges and flaws or whatever they are calling them. That would allow common occurances to be metered without it becoming a universal "You talk funny because you have ware" penalty.

2) You can play another game: See above

3) Hatchetman: One cyberzombie shouldn't a universal constant make, especially because, you know, CYBERZOMBIE!

I mean i'd have to go back and re-read the books but I really really cannot remember any of the other heavily cybered characters waxing emo about how disasociated they were. IIRC Argent Didn't, Kid Stealth didn't, Others whose names I can't remember didn't. That's my question to the development team at the end of the day, what the hell do you have against cybered characters being awesome? Why do you have such a goddamn hardon for portraying them like second class citizens. I mean i get it, magical talent is rare and all that and everyone who buys the mage or adept quality is a special little snow flake who should be worshiped and protected by their team because they are lucky to have them, but why do you feel the need to take the extra step and penalize every person playing the game in any other way but Magicrun. What possible purpose does it serve?

[KarmaInferno]

What possible purpose does it serve?

They have, in fact, stated that one of the design goals was to get back to their roots in the dystopian cyberpunk genre.

And "cyberware eats your soul" is a classic primary trope of cyberpunk.




-k

[LurkerOutThere]

They have, in fact, stated that one of the design goals was to get back to their roots in the dystopian cyberpunk genre.

And "cyberware eats your soul" is a classic primary trope of cyberpunk.




-k

Except for the part where it's really not, that is to say it's a trope of it but just flipping over tot he literature section of tvtropes pretty well puts to death that whole classic part.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...ticsEatYourSoul

[KarmaInferno]

Really? One of the main themes in cyberpunk is sacrificing parts of yourself to get ahead, to maintain that 'edge'.

These may be actual physical parts, or more metaphysical, but the idea appears in a massive amount of cyberpunk work.




-k

[LurkerOutThere]

See my edit and then please provide examples. I'm not trying to be snarky, i want to get to the bottom of this.

Because at the end of the day, I find this notion that cybernetics = bad nothing more then bad religion with a new flavor. As a person who knows people that have needed a prosthetic limb and would jump at the chance for a full on cybernetic limb, and myself suffering from a debilitating spinal injury this whole redressed "Altering the body is against god's plan" bit actually borders on depressing or insulting.

[StealthSigma]

And "cyberware eats your soul" is a classic primary trope of cyberpunk.

Transhumanism is only one part of cyberpunk and cybernetic eating your soul is only one variation of transhumanism. It's extremely common in tabletops because it's a useful way to interject a limiting mechanic but the prevalence in tabletops is hardly an accurate representation of the cyberpunk genre regarding transhumanism.

[KarmaInferno]

I typically count transhumanism as part of the post-cyberpunk movement. The quote I like explaining the difference goes something like, "Transhumanism is about how becoming post-human advances humanity. Cyberpunk is about how it doesn't."

Classic cyberpunk is dystopic. Characters struggle to get ahead, and often sacrifice what they hold dear to do so, only to find that what they gained is often not worth what they gave up. Chopping off parts of your body and replacing them with machine is just a manifestation of that larger theme. Gibson, Sterling, Stephenson all usually featured mostly human characters as their main protagonists but more often than not depicted heavily cybered characters are as inhuman in various ways.

Remember that classic Cyberpunk reflects attitudes in fiction writing from the 1980s, not today. It features rapid advances in technology that, while amazing, erode basic human existence. Better computers, better machines, better humans... that end up being sucked up as cogs in the heartless corporate machine.

I will note that even in the most dystopian works of the genre, getting cybered to fix damaged or malfunctioning human parts is commonly seen as far less dehumanizing than lopping off perfectly working meat to get the advantages of chrome. This fits the trope, because part of the dehumanization is that choice, to reject one's basic humanity voluntarily, rather than being forced to. Many works have protagonists being forced to undergo cyborg implants but retaining much more humanity than others that voluntarily chose to become machine.



-k

[StealthSigma]

I typically count transhumanism as part of the post-cyberpunk movement. The quote I like explaining the difference goes something like, "Transhumanism is about how becoming post-human advances humanity. Cyberpunk is about how it doesn't."

Say what you will, but transhumanism has nothing to do with post-cyberpunk vs cyber-punk. It is a very well defined term regarding the usage of technology to alter the human condition. It is the meta categorization as far as cyberization is concerned.

Classic cyberpunk is dystopic. Characters struggle to get ahead, and often sacrifice what they hold dear to do so, only to find that what they gained is often not worth what they gave up. Gibson, Sterling, Stephenson all usually featured mostly human characters as their main protagonists but more often than not depicted heavily cybered characters are as inhuman in various ways.

Remember that classic Cyberpunk reflects attitudes in fiction writing from the 1980s, not today. It features rapid advances in technology that, while amazing, erode basic human existence. Better computers, better machines, better humans... that end up being sucked up as cogs in the heartless corporate machine.

Further, the cyberware eats your soul isn't really directly there. The problem with the dystopic setting is that most characters are genuinely fucked up for various reasons not related to the cybernetic enhancements (see Case from Neuromancer) and they are screwed up prior to obtaining cybernetics. I would argue that dissociation is signficant, but the patterns of cybernetics in any developed character has always been that cybernetics are an attempt to sepated themselves from their old traumatized body or often times a means to prevent the trauma from reoccurring. In either of those cases you can hardly argue that cybernetics eats your soul because the character's soul has already been significantly damaged by the trauma that they've already experienced.

[Cochise]

Many works have protagonists being forced to undergo cyborg implants but retaining much more humanity than others that voluntarily chose to become machine.

Which makes an intrinstic effect of dehumanization due to implants themselves (as in "losing essence") highly questionable in terms of being a "defining" cyberpunk trope, since quite obviously said protagonists did not suffer. If anything, those who voluntarily replaced body parts would have to be depicted as having mental issues even before they started having implants.

[KarmaInferno]

It is true that the dehumanizing effect in most other cyberpunk work is mostly psychological. Forced-cyberization characters often become deeply depressed and often only manage to go on through some strong sense of duty or driving goal. Robocop would have probably killed himself if not for his sense of duty - most of the later experimental attempts to recreate him did commit suicide.

Voluntary cyborgs often seem much less emo about their upgrades, but at the same time become much less empathically 'human', either becoming emotionless killing machines or sometimes just going bug nuts psychotic.

"Essence" is kinda unique to Shadowrun. Even Cyberpunk 2020 and it's relatives has the effects of cyborg parts being mostly mental, not spiritual.

I suppose at it's heart, it's all about rejection of humanity.




-k

[sk8bcn]

I will note that even in the most dystopian works of the genre, getting cybered to fix damaged or malfunctioning human parts is commonly seen as far less dehumanizing than lopping off perfectly working meat to get the advantages of chrome. This fits the trope, because part of the dehumanization is that choice, to reject one's basic humanity voluntarily, rather than being forced to. Many works have protagonists being forced to undergo cyborg implants but retaining much more humanity than others that voluntarily chose to become machine.

-k

mmmm

"But I'm ready to sell my own meat to excel at my task, and that's put my farer from common mankind" has as implication that I am already different from other ones.

Jensen from Deus Ex for exemple is forced too change. Under your description, so, you would analyse it as : "your have a mental state (different from the norm) that makes you able to replace functionning parts form your body.

It's different from essence loss=soul loss.

Well I'll houserule it probably in the end. But before deciding, it'd be nice to know more about it.

[binarywraith]

I mean i'd have to go back and re-read the books but I really really cannot remember any of the other heavily cybered characters waxing emo about how disasociated they were. IIRC Argent Didn't, Kid Stealth didn't, Others whose names I can't remember didn't. That's my question to the development team at the end of the day, what the hell do you have against cybered characters being awesome? Why do you have such a goddamn hardon for portraying them like second class citizens. I mean i get it, magical talent is rare and all that and everyone who buys the mage or adept quality is a special little snow flake who should be worshiped and protected by their team because they are lucky to have them, but why do you feel the need to take the extra step and penalize every person playing the game in any other way but Magicrun. What possible purpose does it serve?

I've re-read many of them recently. Kid Stealth, for example, has precisely zero qualms about all the metal in him. He had his legs specifically designed to be less human looking because they would be more useful that way, even!

Argent's got even heavier 'ware than Stealth, IIRC, and is well known for having strong scruples and his occasional moments of compassion.


Cyberware hurting the body's ability to channel magic makes sense, if you consider magic to operate on holistic doctrines. Cyberware making people act and seem inhuman isn't even reflected by the fluff, or there'd be no use for cyberware scanners, just look for the creepy guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[CanRay]

I've re-read many of them recently. Kid Stealth, for example, has precisely zero qualms about all the metal in him. He had his legs specifically designed to be less human looking because they would be more useful that way, even!

Argent's got even heavier 'ware than Stealth, IIRC, and is well known for having strong scruples and his occasional moments of compassion.

Look at how people react to them, however.

Kid Stealth is looked upon as a freak and a monster by a lot of people (Including one woman who he saved!), and Argent practically has his rights beaten into him in Quebec before he is able to provide his Fake SIN and Fake Bounty Hunter License (Also, the author doesn't mention the hideous side-effect of Move-By-Wire's side effects except as a "Cost of being SOTA" thing, and how non-'Runners/Mercs view it.). Also, in Nigel Findley's works (Argent's origins), he is very, very touchy about the nature of his cyberarms.

Some of it is the view of person who got the cybernetics. Some of it is the view of others.

[Stahlseele]

There's a Reason why cyberpsychosis is optional for anybody but Zombies and Jarbrains if i remember Correctly.
You don't have to become less and less like yourself as you lose essence, but you go from fine living meat to dead at one point.
I think i remember only one single characte from one single novel who was stressing out/emo about becoming less human . .
And all he did not have all that much cyberware to begin with, if i remember correctly. A blend between cyber and bio to be exact.

Argents Arms?
The only one touchy about them was the Lone Star Under Cover Guy named Wolf.
"Volountary Replacement? Who goes to his Doc and tells him to chop off a set of perfectly fine arms and to replace them with machines?"

[binarywraith]

Look at how people react to them, however.

Kid Stealth is looked upon as a freak and a monster by a lot of people (Including one woman who he saved!), and Argent practically has his rights beaten into him in Quebec before he is able to provide his Fake SIN and Fake Bounty Hunter License (Also, the author doesn't mention the hideous side-effect of Move-By-Wire's side effects except as a "Cost of being SOTA" thing, and how non-'Runners/Mercs view it.). Also, in Nigel Findley's works (Argent's origins), he is very, very touchy about the nature of his cyberarms.

Some of it is the view of person who got the cybernetics. Some of it is the view of others.

Kid Stealth is looked upon as a monster because he's a known hitman who was so cold as to blow off his old limbs to escape the old 'concrete overshoes' treatment, then to go back with his shiny new dinosaur legs and kick the people responsible to death. He was a scary, scary man long before he ever went under the knife.

[Stahlseele]

And even Kid Stealth kept one Arm, because he liked the Feeling of it.