Best Thrown Weapons?, Where's my monofilament throwing knife? Options

[Stahlseele]

There is NOTHING wrong with using Grenades as thrown Weapons.
If you make them sticky, then they deal damage from the throw immediately.
And at the End of the Round, they go bang where they are.
And if the enemy did not scratch them off of himself, then it's christmas at ground zero.

The only reason why people ain't doing that in our world is that we don't have the tech.
That's why 40mm grenades and launchers have been invented, so you can fire explosves at people.

[Sunshine]

Do you one better: Cargo Freighter, captained by a dwarf!

Make sure Its not a sheep in dwarfs wool!

[Umidori]

A certain bat-themed comic book character who throws explosive (and electroshock, and EMP, and tracker) bladed weapons would like to have a word with you.

Invoking comic books is probably a bad way to argue that something isn't silly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

More to the point, however, is that we're dealing with a game system, and the mechanics and the RAW don't support or plan for grenades dealing impact damage in addition to their explosive damage.

The only reason why people ain't doing that in our world is that we don't have the tech.
That's why 40mm grenades and launchers have been invented, so you can fire explosves at people.

So presumably you'd also be in favor of letting people deal "bullet" damage by shooting a grenade into someone's face from a launcher, and then have it deal additional explosive damage afterwards, hmm?

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

improvised throwing weapons damage

[Umidori]

Yes, that system exists - but for a different reason. It exists so you can use a chair or a brick as a thrown weapon, not so you can deal extra cheese damage on top of already spectacular grenade AoE damage.

There's also the Missile Mastery adept power, which technically allows you to kill people with marshmallows, but while that's just as unrealistic as killing them with a grenade shell to the noggin', the difference is it's not overpowered - if anything it's underpowered compared to real throwing weapons.

Where do you draw the line with this viewpoint of yours? Can I duct tape four grenades together and throw them all at once? Or fill a backpack with grenades and huck it at someone, then remotely detonate them all for Massive Damage™? Perhaps more importantly, if you allow beaning people with grenades, do you also remember to enforce scatter?

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

combining explosives, if you have the demolitions skill, sure, why not?
scatter, of course, it has to be used with grenades. just when you go to the length to make them stick to where they hit it becomes much less of a problem.

[Umidori]

Why not? Are you unfamiliar with the threads floating around here where people show that in SR4 you can deal more damage over a larger area with a bundle of 20-ish grenades than you can with a nuclear bomb? Also, why would you need demolitions skill to toss grenades in a bag and hand it to the throwing adept?

As for sticky grenades, I'm not familiar with the rules for that. (They're in War!, I think? I don't have that book.) If they stick to enemies, why don't they stick to the thrower? More importantly, how expensive and available are they? I can't make a determination of how balanced they are without that sort of information, but since most of the stuff from War! is just stupidly absurd anyway, I'm not really expecting it to be reasonable.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

they are weapons, so they have mod slots i assume and they can, per default, be activated per wifi.
if they have mod slots, you can attach gecko grip stuff to them. and you can, if i am not misremembering this, activate gecko stuff via wifi too.
so hey presto, there you go!

furthermore:
that you can deal more damage with grenades than with a nuke is an entirely different problem which has, technically, not much to do with the grenades themselves.

[Umidori]

The Gecko Grip mod is clearly intended for firearms, but even if one allows it for grenades, you still run into problems.

The gecko grip "can be turned on and off via wireless command (smartguns only) as well as mechanically by pressing two buttons simultaneously". So you can either press the two buttons to turn on the grip, while the grenade is still in your hand, or you can send a wireless signal... except you can't because a grenade cannot have a smartgun system installed. Even if it could, sending a wireless command still takes a Simple Action via Use Simple Object.

~Umi

[RHat]

Gecko Grenades exist as a price and availability modification to existing grenades. They're in War, the gecko function is wirelessly activated, and it takes Body+Strength (2) to move them once stuck.

[Umidori]

Yes, I figured they must have a price and availability modification, but I'd love to know what exact values those are, if possible. The low threshold to remove them is reassuring, and the wireless activation will still take a Simple Action.

~Umi

[RHat]

Yes, I figured they must have a price and availability modification, but I'd love to know what exact values those are, if possible. The low threshold to remove them is reassuring, and the wireless activation will still take a Simple Action.

~Umi

Free Action, I'd assume - Change Linked Device Mode.

As for specifics: +2 Avail, +50 Nuyen, all else is as a standard grenade of whichever type. The effect, however, is actually to reduce scatter by an additional meter per hit (it does not explicitly say "net", make of that what you will), meaning that you'll still need a pretty decent shot/throw to actually stick it to a person.

[Umidori]

Change Linked Device Mode is reasonably clearly spelled out.

This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on.

Compare to Use Simple Object.

In this case, “simple” is defined as a device or mechanism that can be operated via a simple activity such as pushing a button, turning a knob (doors must be unlocked to be opened with a Simple Action), pulling a lever, and so on.

To be fair, I could see arguments for either side.

That said, while I hate War! and everything in it, I'm kind of prepared to concede sticky grenades on some level, given proper balance. What I'm NOT prepared to concede is impact damage from chucking a grenade at someone's head. That's clearly gaming the system for extra damage that was never intended to occur.

~Umi

[RHat]

It's a wireless activation, so it's a command sent wirelessly. Assuming you have a DNI, that just takes a thought.

And I'll point out: The grenade rules do not assume that you hit your target with the grenade - merely that they are in the blast area, and the lower the scatter the closer it is to them. Due to that fact, you'd have to alter the grenade rules substantially to allow for something like this.

[Umidori]

It's nice that you clarified how the "sticky grenades" actually work, with the reduced scatter. That keeps things mercifully sane. Pity it's not better worded with the hits/net hits bit, but what do you expect from War!, I guess?

~Umi

[RHat]

To be fair, given the concept of it, I could actually see it being based on total hits - after all, it should be sticking to the first surface it comes into contact with.