Euro Wars Antiques, For that Retro-Cold War feeling! Options

[Fatum]

Okay, so, judging from the preview, the fluff section is based more around current RL political developments and russophobia than previously established SR fluff. And the German Shattenkatalogs have the Euro-Wars era weaponry. I think I'll pass.

[Grinder]

Matt Wrath is a new poster. You'll see more of him in SR5.

As per Fastjacks request at the end of STorm Front, Jackpoint is bringing in some new blood for Shadowrun 5, and Matt and I think Winternaut are two of the first additions.

Wrath is also one of the NPCs that will be popping up in Season 5 of Missions.

Why introduce him in a SR4 book, then? Couldn't their roles be filled by established shadowtalkers?

[lokii]

Well, here's my Review. I tried to look for these things. Also, your maps are about what I wanted to make, only fancier with google maps optics. Damn, you beat me to it before I even started (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Thanks for the review. So basically, I will have to get this when I'm ready to finish the map project but mainly because of the added detail, it is not the canon reconciliation I had hoped for. I'm a bit worried by the mention of Essen, if I remember correctly the German front never moved beyond Brandenburg and Saxony.

Regarding the maps: These are just drafts but if you want a rough overview of the Euro Wars to accompany the PDF, you can have a look at them:

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Datei:Karte_...urokriege_I.png

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Datei:Karte_...rokriege_II.png

Attacking Southern Europe through Sicily and Sardinia is an assumption I made, though it is stated that Alliance forces crossed the Mediterranean. The rest is based on some reference: bombarding of Cyprus, Invasion of Stavropol, annexation of Moldovia etc. Also note the short lived Danube Union in Eastern Europe.

[Bull]

Why introduce him in a SR4 book, then? Couldn't their roles be filled by established shadowtalkers?

*shrug* Don't ask me. I used him in Rigger 4 because personally because I find him a blast to write for, but that's also non canon so it doesn't really matter. He has some... Unique speech patterns and viewpoints. I threw him in mostly to tease Season 5.

Bull

[hermit]

In all seriousness, shoot Jason an email and tell him so. We could use another map guy.

Okay, I'll work up some demo pieces and send them.

Okay, so, judging from the preview, the fluff section is based more around current RL political developments and russophobia than previously established SR fluff. And the German Shattenkatalogs have the Euro-Wars era weaponry. I think I'll pass.

It's the Russian Nationalist story American gamers love so much, basically, but that's legacy in Shadowrun, too.

Attacking Southern Europe through Sicily and Sardinia is an assumption I made, though it is stated that Alliance forces crossed the Mediterranean. The rest is based on some reference: bombarding of Cyprus, Invasion of Stavropol, annexation of Moldovia etc. Also note the short lived Danube Union in Eastern Europe.

In the PDF, they focus on Sicily, and then move onto Naples, where they are eventually turned back.

Also, forgot to put in one criticism: The Caucus Mountains, being invaded by the Jihadis. Uhm, yes. Geography fail.

[Fatum]

It's the Russian Nationalist story American gamers love so much, basically, but that's legacy in Shadowrun, too.

It was presented times more gracefully and logically in the previous supplements (some of which this supplement directly contradicts).

[lokii]

Also, forgot to put in one criticism: The Caucus Mountains, being invaded by the Jihadis. Uhm, yes. Geography fail.

I wouldn't say they invaded, rather they are already there. With the significant Muslim populations of Azerbaijan, Dagestan and Chechnya potential Alliance allies control a trans-Caucasian corridor towards Stavropol right from the beginning of the second phase. Shadows of Asia describes the battle as an "onslaught of overwhelming Alliance for Allah forces at Stavropol", so I assumed that the Alliance send reinforcements to Stravropol to assist their local allies. The arrow should probably fork instead of going right through Georgia but the map was too small. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (And I limited the size for some reason I have forgotten.)

[Mantis]

I wish there had been a few more Russian rifles like the OTs-14 Groza, the SVU, the SVD dragunov or the AS VAL and less of things we are likely to never see or use like tanks and missiles and rockets that are no longer manufactured. I really didn't get the point of including things like the Abrams when all the shadowtalk says the things are all gone with only maybe a shell or two lying around. The helicopters are nice though and you might actually use them in game.
The various jets were wasted as they are old tech that is priced way too high compared to more modern aircraft to actually be used. Compare the SU-35 E at 6.8 million to the SU-41 in Unfriendly Skies at 1.95 million. You could buy 3 SU-41s for the price of 1 SU-35 E and not have to deal with Obsolete issue.
It isn't all doom and gloom though. It was nice to see stats for the Nightwraiths and I got a kick out of seeing that the Alliance for Allah were generally equipped with rifles from the 1950s and 70s (G-3 and AK/RPK-74). Real antiques by the mid 2030s I imagine. I also found a certain irony in the Russians having to face weapons they equipped the middle east with in a battle in their own back yard.
I'll also echo the lack of maps. I saw this as an ideal product to include troop movement style maps. Instead there were lists of what units were involved. Not really all that enlightening when you don't have any real background on the units or leaders involved. I was kind of disappointed overall as I've been waiting for this book for ever.

[Fatum]

I'll also echo the lack of maps. I saw this as an ideal product to include troop movement style maps. Instead there were lists of what units were involved. Not really all that enlightening when you don't have any real background on the units or leaders involved. I was kind of disappointed overall as I've been waiting for this book for ever.

Even less enlightening if you have minimal background. For instance, Border Guards are subordinated to the UGB, not the MVD or the MO.

[Sengir]

It was presented times more gracefully and logically in the previous supplements (some of which this supplement directly contradicts).

The whole Eurowars story has a certain campy 80s feeling to it, if them Ruskis are made to look accordingly that totally fits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But here is one thing that struck me as wrong in the preview:
The overall levels of defense spending declined for most of Western Europe prior to the invasion of Poland, with the limited rearmament programs largely seen as replacements for existing ability and local work programs intended for the funding nation to recoup nearly as much in taxes and export duties as they spent upgrading their capabilities. The German army was slowly dismantled...

NATO forces would have had a hard time slowing a Russian invasion even at their peak strength, with reduced troop strength it becomes REALLY hard to explain how the Eurowars happened as they did...

[hermit]

The whole Eurowars story has a certain campy 80s feeling to it, if them Ruskis are made to look accordingly that totally fits

This file is more like a Tom Clancy product, really, which is more a 2000s Age of Neocons kind of feel. Or any of those identical Medal of Duty - Black Battlefield Commando games.

NATO forces would have had a hard time slowing a Russian invasion even at their peak strength, with reduced troop strength it becomes REALLY hard to explain how the Eurowars happened as they did...

The PDF lists a combination of industrial capacity, incompetent Russian commanders, and (megacorp sponsored) mercenaries as the reason. At peak strength, NATO troops were intended to hold the Russians until American help arrived (there's a Guido Knopp movie playing the war through, according to plans from both sides). Of cours,e at the peak of the Cold War, the Russians had a much larger army than they have now, which is apparently the base for the Eurowars. By and large, the Eurowars follow the outline of the Knopp movie; they just don't end in a nuclear exchange thanks to the Nightwraith strikes (which are hinted at being American in origin - the FMC maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

[Sengir]

This file is more like a Tom Clancy product

...and I think Red Storm Rising is the quintessential "Cold War turning hot" novel (key word "novel", not "historical treatise")

At peak strength, NATO troops were intended to hold the Russians until American help arrived

...and with the US turning to "splendid isolation", the whole POMCUS reinforcement were gone, which reduces the defending troops even more.

they just don't end in a nuclear exchange thanks to the Nightwraith strikes (which are hinted at being American in origin - the FMC maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Pah, the FMC would not need bombers. They have patriotic awesomeness and Purity of Heart +5...

[lokii]

The FMC was founded when the southern states seceded in 2034. For one that's cutting it awfully close with their involvement in the Euro Wars but it also means they could not have been responsible for the Nightwraith strike.

[Fatum]

This file is more like a Tom Clancy product, really, which is more a 2000s Age of Neocons kind of feel. Or any of those identical Medal of Duty - Black Battlefield Commando games.

This. Can you imagine an 80ies or 90ies piece on how Russia used Gazprom to build an army and leverage influence? This is very clearly a product of the times.

The FMC was founded when the southern states seceded in 2034. For one that's cutting it awfully close with their involvement in the Euro Wars but it also means they could not have been responsible for the Nightwraith strike.

On the contrary: they could've been involved with USAF strike somehow.

[lokii]

On the contrary: they could've been involved with USAF strike somehow.

As former marines? Regardless not involved as a mercenary outfit is what I meant.

How definitive is the claim of US-American responsibility in Euro War Antiques, anyway?

Something else I noticed the preview doesn't mention the uprising of the Yakutian Awakened though that was one of the main reasons for the war. But this was already changed in the Sixth World Almanac where the Awakened rebelled after Russia started the war

Also, forgot to put in one criticism: The Caucus Mountains, being invaded by the Jihadis. Uhm, yes. Geography fail.

Oh, by the way. From Shadows of Asia, in the Russia Timeline on page 122 "Alliance for Allah forces drive north through Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Russia redeploys forces in Eastern Europe southward into the Caucasus Mountains.".

[hermit]

This. Can you imagine an 80ies or 90ies piece on how Russia used Gazprom to build an army and leverage influence? This is very clearly a product of the times.

That and the narrative that Russian Nationalists™ take over and punish Europe's unmanly lack of interest in military spending by rampaging over Europe because reasons. It's basically the plot framework of EndWar, the way it is narrated in the document, and makes hardly any mention of Yakutia (only in passing, later, during the Jihad, it is mentioned that Russia was caught unaware because many troops were being relocated to the Siberian containment zone). EWA-Russia attacks because it conquered Belarus and that worked, it annoyed it's citizens by taking away liberties they had enjoyed after the fall fo the Soviet Union, and felt the only viable way to stabilise the country was to wantonly attack other nuclear powers because what can go wrong.

How definitive is the claim of US-American responsibility in Euro War Antiques, anyway?

Shadowtalk, but by Plan 9, who knows everything in this document and is the most knowledgable shadowposter since Attitude anyway.

Oh, by the way. From Shadows of Asia, in the Russia Timeline on page 122 "Alliance for Allah forces drive north through Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Russia redeploys forces in Eastern Europe southward into the Caucasus Mountains.".

Okay, my bad. I meant they call the Caucasus "Caucus" mountains throughout the document. Unless his is an anglicised version of the name I'm not familiar with, it's yet another instance of geographic failure.

As former marines? Regardless not involved as a mercenary outfit is what I meant.

I don't know about the UCAS, but the USA uses mercenaries like relatively frequently. Then again, the UCAS supposedly has a rather crappy army and a budget that has been thoroughly norquisted ... though this seems to have been retconned out.

[Fatum]

That and the narrative that Russian Nationalists™ take over

Russian Nationalists are a well-established element of the setting. SoA actually goes into a huge rant how bigotry and xenophobia are bred into each Russian. (I find this Yankee nigga bullshit immensely offensive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) ).

Okay, my bad. I meant they call the Caucasus "Caucus" mountains throughout the document. Unless his is an anglicised version of the name I'm not familiar with, it's yet another instance of geographic failure.

Hahahaha, seriously? Glorious CGL editing, minding that "caucus" is a word in its own right. Dragon hordes, dragon hordes everywhere.

I don't know about the UCAS, but the USA uses mercenaries like relatively frequently. Then again, the UCAS supposedly has a rather crappy army and a budget that has been thoroughly norquisted ... though this seems to have been retconned out.

Not that using mercenaries is against the international laws...

[Sengir]

Not that using mercenaries is against the international laws...

Given that the UN convention against mercenaries has around two dozen signatories and there is little sign that any of the real world powers considers signing away that option, it really isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And that is just IRL, the SR universe postulates wanton deregulation of corporate activity even before 2012, sounds probable that this also included "free enterprise" in war zones...


But really, dumb Russians and MET2000 (et. al.) are all that supposedly bogged down any advances? That really sounds a tad underwhelming.

[Prime Mover]

More a feel after reading this then any single piece of info. Corporate responsibility or at least backing in the night wraith strike. A return to stability and profit as a motivator.

[lokii]

Russian Nationalists are a well-established element of the setting. SoA actually goes into a huge rant how bigotry and xenophobia are bred into each Russian. (I find this Yankee nigga bullshit immensely offensive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) ).

I feel you. Once you read more closely into it, there is things like the Border Wars were a secret Russian plot. This is somewhat comical if you know the history behind this. The Border Wars are an invention of the first generation of German Shadowrun writers, you know the people who brought you the Great Jihad. I strongly suspect, no, I'm almost certain, it was just an excuse to use the chain of adjectives "Russian-Baltic-Polish-Ukrainian". Anyway, Russia _lost_ this war according to the first inception. In Shadows of Europe the cause of the war is then given as Belarusian aggression, though Russia is accorded some blame for further escalation after the initial conflict ends. Belarus as the aggressor is still true in the Almanac, which has a textbook chapter on the Border Wars. And now it was the Russians all along, working in secret no less?

Hahahaha, seriously? Glorious CGL editing, minding that "caucus" is a word in its own right. Dragon hordes, dragon hordes everywhere.

If one is to trust Wikipedia, Caucas is a synonym. Also Wikipedia recognises that there might be an issue and graciously links to Caucasus from the caucus article. But who knows maybe the Euro Wars have a little known political angle to them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mind you, the whole thing starts with this:

No one document can cover the entire history of what have become known as the Euro Wars, and no one historian should claim to present the definitive perspective on such a turbulent, chaotic series of events.

[lokii]

More a feel after reading this then any single piece of info. Corporate responsibility or at least backing in the night wraith strike. A return to stability and profit as a motivator.

We'll just blame it on the elves.

[hermit]

We'll just blame it on the elves.

Fuchi had this base full of Stealth Bombers in Latvia. I always took this as Fuchi being behind the strike, possibly by C5 mandate to prevent an all-out nuclear exchange between Russia and the Europowers. The comment in EWA, though, seems like an obvious retcon:

I’ve seen the video interview of an old US Army Ranger, Kevin Ball, who claimed to be part of this operation. He died three days later when Winternight unleashed their assault.

Also Wikipedia recognises that there might be an issue and graciously links to Caucasus from the caucus article. But who knows maybe the Euro Wars have a little known political angle to them...

Dragon hordes in the Caucus region?

[Stahlseele]

I thought the Dragons woke up after the War?

[lokii]

Fuchi had this base full of Stealth Bombers in Latvia.

Do you remember where this is written?

I’ve seen the video interview of an old US Army Ranger, Kevin Ball, who claimed to be part of this operation. He died three days later when Winternight unleashed their assault.

To be fair, that doesn't mean the US were behind the strike. Maybe this guy was a mercenary. Though admittedly it's hard to think of a different implication. Is mentioning Winternight meant to somehow link this to the Unity Coalition and New Revolution?

Anyway, I think it's easy enough to ignore as an explanation. Unless you like this particular solution for the Nightwraith mystery.

Dragon hordes in the Caucus region?

Funny enough given that the Caucasus was once called Dragon Mountains and you could describe some politicians as dragons. The phrase should work out in all mis- or correctly spelled combinations...

I thought the Dragons woke up after the War?

No. The sighting of the first dragon signifies the beginning of the Sixth World. That's 2011. Remember?

[Fatum]

In Shadows of Europe the cause of the war is then given as Belarusian aggression, though Russia is accorded some blame for further escalation after the initial conflict ends. Belarus as the aggressor is still true in the Almanac, which has a textbook chapter on the Border Wars. And now it was the Russians all along, working in secret no less?

Well, according to this, as I read it, Russians were just using Belarus as a proxy.
That said, there's even a bit of fluff where "Polish troops enter Belarus to protect refugees and bring order to destabilized country, occupying Hrodna (Grodno) and Brest (Brześć)" (can't really find the original source now).


Also, as for the ranger interview: it's an eyewitness account retold by a shadowtalker. I wouldn't base any far-going conclusions on such evidence.