SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[StealthSigma]

How so? It generally serves for me as shorthand to tell the players 'no, that's retarded min-maxing, don't do that' without ever having to watch their eyes light up as they see a point buy system.

It takes away freedom because it does not permit balance. You have an A/B/C/D/E priority. You can't take something that would end up similar to C/C/C/C/C, A/C/C/C/E, or B/C/C/C/D. Simple as that. It's "NO! You must choose to have your character be rocking awesome in this area and you must be mediocre in this area!"

--

I agree. I'm not a fan of min-maxing, and I'm happy to see the priority system put a check on that. Nothing against min-maxers, I just don't like being put into a position where I'm unintentionally screwing the players due to the fact that they all min-maxed and they are short some skills.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a severe misunderstanding of the term min maxing.

Min-maxing stands for minimizing flaws while maximizing potential. It does not stand for minimizing everything else at the expense of maxing one thing. If someone is coming out where they have severe handicaps then they did not min-max.

[Aaron]

But they did announce that "everything has a price", didn't they? Well, looks the price for playing 5th Ed is learning German (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wissen ist Macht, und gelernt ist gelernt, aber wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen, oder?

Ich tatsächlich verwendet werden, um in Schwaben zu leben (gell?), aber heute finde ich es leichter (und lustiger) auf Englisch in Google eingeben Übersetzen. =i)

[StealthSigma]

Wissen ist Macht, und gelernt ist gelernt, aber wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen, oder?

Ich tatsächlich verwendet werden, um in Schwaben zu leben (gell?), aber heute finde ich es leichter (und lustiger) auf Englisch in Google eingeben Übersetzen. =i)

Google Übersetzer ist nicht die beste und oft PDFs sind nicht mit dem Text gemacht, die leicht kopiert wird.

[Seerow]

So ist dies offiziell die Stelle, wo der Faden kreuzt von "diskutieren SR5" bis "Lasst uns alle sprechen lernen via Google Deutsch, weil die englischen Schriftsteller schrecklich sind"?

[Aaron]

Nur bis 15 Juni.

[Patrick Goodman]

Well, that got a little surreal fairly quickly. At least for me....

[Aaron]

It takes away freedom because it does not permit balance. You have an A/B/C/D/E priority. You can't take something that would end up similar to C/C/C/C/C, A/C/C/C/E, or B/C/C/C/D. Simple as that. It's "NO! You must choose to have your character be rocking awesome in this area and you must be mediocre in this area!"

I can't speak for anybody else, but I like the idea of starting with a character that has some room to grow. It makes the campaign a campaign instead of a series of one-shots. Heck, even the upcoming Shadowrun deck building game has character growth between games.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that having a set of specialists instead of a group of generalists makes the teamwork that much more important. I like teamwork, so that's a plus for me, too.

[StealthSigma]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I like the idea of starting with a character that has some room to grow. It makes the campaign a campaign instead of a series of one-shots. Heck, even the upcoming Shadowrun deck building game has character growth between games.

Growth comes in two ways vertical and horizontal. No matter how you approach character building on the scale of roleplaying vs optimization, you will have room for growth.

[Stahlseele]

ATTENTION

This room is fullfilled mit special electronische equippment.
Fingergrabbing and pressing the cnoeppkes from the computers is
allowed for die experts only! So all the “lefthanders” stay away
and do not disturben the brainstorming von here working
intelligencies. Otherwise you will be out thrown and kicked
anderswhere! Also: please keep still and only watchen astaunished
the blinkenlights

[Cochise]

~sigh~ I guess I have to work on my humor ... again.

[Stahlseele]

~sigh~ I guess I have to work on my humor ... again.

German "Humor" is difficult for other nationalities somehow it seems.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But they did announce that "everything has a price", didn't they? Well, looks the price for playing 5th Ed is learning German (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seems only fair, as Many Germans know English.
I really wish my brain would let me learn German, unfortunately, My brain is defunct in that regard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Black Swan]

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a severe misunderstanding of the term min maxing.

Min-maxing stands for minimizing flaws while maximizing potential. It does not stand for minimizing everything else at the expense of maxing one thing. If someone is coming out where they have severe handicaps then they did not min-max.

No, I'm pretty much bang on. I think you have been misinformed.

Wikipedia:

"Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing desired ones. This is usually accomplished by improving one specific trait or ability by sacrificing ability in all other fields."

[KarmaInferno]

@Draco: Editing the same input in two different ways with two different teams, once for the paper book and once for the digital release, sounds like an exceptionally stupid idea. Like doing the entire cutting and post-production of a film twice, once for cinema and once for the home release..

It's what happens when you have a time limit.

They likely grabbed pages from whatever draft was available at the time and did an editing run so they could put out the preview NOW, rather than waiting for the book to be finished to do it, and having the previews show up like a few days before the book release.\


-k

[KarmaInferno]

No, I'm pretty much bang on. I think you have been misinformed.

Wikipedia:

"Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing desired ones. This is usually accomplished by improving one specific trait or ability by sacrificing ability in all other fields."

Wikipedia is wrong in this case. Then again, it's usually a bad idea to use any wiki as a source of proof.

Minimize downsides while maximizing upsides. Anything beyond that is entirely personal choice. This has been the use of the term min-max in RPGs for more than 20 years.

Single focus maximizing is a form of min-maxing, but it is not the only way to do it. Depending on the system, it is often possible to maximize in several directions, not just one.

I personally call single focus characters 'one trick ponies'.



-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The priority system takes freedom away from the player.

This. Right. Here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Redjack]

I've always heard/used min-maxing as synonymous with one-shot-wonders. Maximize one skill/area to the detriment of all others. I have seen/heard it used like for 20 years as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How so? It generally serves for me as shorthand to tell the players 'no, that's retarded min-maxing, don't do that' without ever having to watch their eyes light up as they see a point buy system.

Not everyone min-max's to insane builds. Priority DOES take away freedom. You can't really argue that point. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ATTENTION

This room is fullfilled mit special electronische equippment.
Fingergrabbing and pressing the cnoeppkes from the computers is
allowed for die experts only! So all the “lefthanders” stay away
and do not disturben the brainstorming von here working
intelligencies. Otherwise you will be out thrown and kicked
anderswhere! Also: please keep still and only watchen astaunished
the blinkenlights

There we go... German I can actually understand... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Redjack]

Priority DOES take away freedom. You can't really argue that point. *shrug*

I have mixed feelings about the return of the priority system. It mostly feels like constipation at the moment....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have mixed feelings about the return of the priority system. It mostly feels like constipation at the moment....

Heh... I can understand that...

[Sengir]

Well, that got a little surreal fairly quickly. At least for me....

Ach du Lieber!

As far as the definition of Min-Maxing goes, I'm mostly with Sigma. Min-Maxing certainly includes dump stats, but the player will somehow game the system so that his BOD 1 actually does not matter. Plus a bunch of irrelevant flaws like Severe Allergy(Plutonium) or Incompetent(left-handed wanking).

[Patrick Goodman]

Ach du Lieber!

It was just kinda weird for me to stumble into a German conversation more or less out of nowhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's all.

... Severe Allergy(Plutonium) ....

Is that just about everyone on the planet? A GM who'd give him points for that needs to turn in his Bastards Club card....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ach du Lieber!
Plus a bunch of irrelevant flaws like Severe Allergy(Plutonium) or Incompetent(left-handed wanking).

Any GM allowing these should have his License rescinded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Is that just about everyone on the planet? A GM who'd give him points for that needs to turn in his Bastards Club card....

I didn't call it "irrelevant flaws" for nothing...though the second case is really just an invitation for the GM to come up with an unfortunate incident where the player's right arm gets maimed...


And are you guys sure that constipated feel is not just your age showing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)